Tupac Shakur Murder Trial Day 2

It would have the date and time and location of when the incident occurred, who's involved, who are the suspects, who are the victims, who are the witnesses. And it would be in a chronological order and an investigation. But initially, everything's kept just basically in the management form. Eventually, you want to get to the point where you put together all that information into an officer's report. And there will come a point in time where the individual detective would make the decision that the officer's report's final. Right? You would get it signed off. It'd be signed off by your sergeant. It'd go into the case file. And then from that point, you would just basically be filing addendums.

(02:35:48)
As new information came in, you might write that information down on that management form and then do an additional officer's report. That's definitely something that I saw when I went to cold case. Some of the cases that were 20 years old, every single step that that detective did was a completely separate officer's report. So you'd get 15 officer's report in the case file. It definitely made a lot more sense to finally get to one point where we had just one officer's report covering the case.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:36:21):

And in your experience, is it unusual for an officer's report to be the very last thing that's generated by the detective assigned to the particular case?

Dean O'Kelley (02:36:35):

No, that's not unusual at all.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:36:38):

I want to direct your attention back to September of 1997. And I'm going to put up really two aerials for you first of all, but I'm going to start with State's Exhibit number 1. Can we go back to me? That appears to be an aerial of Las Vegas Valley?

Dean O'Kelley (02:37:06):

Yes.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:37:06):

Okay. And it's clearly more modern than 1996 because you can see T-Mobile over here and some other things. Is that correct?

Dean O'Kelley (02:37:17):

Quite a bit different today. Yes, that's true.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:37:20):

And then I'm going to go back and show State's Exhibit number 2. This is a much earlier rendition of the Las Vegas Valley because T-Mobile's not there. Is that accurate?

Dean O'Kelley (02:37:39):

That's correct.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:37:39):

Okay. And identified on State's Exhibit number 2 is where the... Oh, I can't move. Oh, I can move the mouse away. Where it says Monte Carlo, that's generally where the Park MGM is today?

Dean O'Kelley (02:37:55):

That's correct.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:37:57):

And at the time, back in 1996, there was a club called the 662 Club on Flamingo. Is that correct?

Dean O'Kelley (02:38:04):

Yes. Very familiar with it.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:38:05):

And is that referenced in State's Exhibit number 2 as well?

Dean O'Kelley (02:38:09):

It is.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:38:10):

And is that generally in the location where it's at?

Dean O'Kelley (02:38:12):

Correct.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:38:15):

So now, I want to jump back to one. At about 11:17 PM on September 7th of 1996, where were you?

Dean O'Kelley (02:38:29):

We were conducting enforcement activity kind of northeast of the location of Koval and Flamingo.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:38:36):

And did something catch your attention?

Dean O'Kelley (02:38:40):

Yes. As we were out with a couple, two, three gang members, we heard over the radio an officer rather excited, certainly under a stressful situation, reporting shots being fired and requesting a code red on the radio. We weren't very far away, so we cut the guys loose that we were with, got in our vehicles, and with lights and siren, we went over to respond to the area of the Maxim Hotel.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:39:11):

When an officer calls out a code red, what does that mean? What is he trying to do?

Dean O'Kelley (02:39:16):

The code red is so that no other radio traffic is coming across except for what those officers are going through. So it's trying to keep the radio traffic to a minimum. So we didn't even announce that we were en route. It's not important for dispatch or really anybody else to know that we were on our way because we're waiting for updates from that officer or from the officers involved. So we stay off the radio. It's a sacred thing. You don't break the code red unless you really have to get on the radio.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:39:52):

And where do you respond to?

Dean O'Kelley (02:39:55):

We responded to the intersection of Koval and Flamingo right there at the Maxim Hotel. Now, it's called the Westin. But we went into the parking lot on the south side of the Maxim and where we saw a patrol unit.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:40:14):

At some point, do you walk out onto Flamingo? Well, let me ask you this. When you first arrived, is there traffic still driving eastbound on Flamingo?

Dean O'Kelley (02:40:25):

Yes. I mean, nothing's changed so far as traffic at that point because whatever had happened was several minutes before that. So now, people are still just driving by. We got to the parking lot. My sergeant, Sergeant Cindy West, had inquired as to where the shots had come from. And we were able to look out into the street there on Flamingo, just west of Koval. And I saw in the headlights just little glimpse of light and recognized that I spent plenty of time on a firing range and I know what brass looks like on the ground. So we were able to determine where several cartridge cases were located in the street west of Koval on Flamingo.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:41:18):

I'm going to approach and show you State's proposed Exhibit 34 to 41. As you look through those, I'm going to grab something from the clerk. Do you recognize those?

Dean O'Kelley (02:41:54):

I do.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:41:55):

And how do you recognize those?

Dean O'Kelley (02:41:58):

When we spotted the cartridge cases in the street, at the time, my enforcement vehicle was in a Chevy van and we had a whole bunch of cones. So as we located the cartridge cases there on the roadway, we took a bunch of cones out of my vehicle and actually placed them... In the photographs, you'll see it a little bit different, but we placed the cones on top of or over the cartridge cases. So the cones protected where they were located because you could even see there was at least, I know one for sure, maybe more that had already been run over by traffic. So it was a little bit mangled. So we protected the crime scene. And we also popped a couple of flares on the north side of the number three travel lane where the cartridge cases are located.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:42:47):

And this fairly, State's Exhibits 34 through 41, fairly and accurately represent that situation?

Dean O'Kelley (02:42:56):

Yes, it is.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:42:57):

Move to admit.

Michael Sanft (02:42:58):

No objection, Your Honor.

Judge Carli Kierny (02:42:59):

So admitted.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:43:01):

So I'm going to put up 34. And can you just describe for us what we're looking at?

Dean O'Kelley (02:43:10):

So you can see the cartridge cases are kind of straddling the two lanes.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:43:16):

Can I stop you for a second, Mr. O'Kelley?

Dean O'Kelley (02:43:17):

Yes.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:43:18):

There's a mouse sitting right there. Don't click it, just... It'll freeze up the whole system, but you can use it as a pointer.

Dean O'Kelley (02:43:25):

Exactly. So these two cones that we set up here were more or less to protect where the cartridge cases were located. These other cones are covering the actual cartridge cases in the roadway. The one that's closest to us in this picture is a bullet fragment. It was the furthest away from Koval. And then the other cones are all spent cartridge cases. Winchester, Smith & Wesson, 40-caliber cartridge cases.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:43:55):

Do you know a person by the name of Dan Ford?

Dean O'Kelley (02:44:00):

Yes, I do.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:44:01):

How do you know Dan?

Dean O'Kelley (02:44:03):

Dan Ford is a senior crime scene analyst that I worked with quite a bit. We started on the department right around the same time and ran into him several times on cases that I worked with in the gang unit investigations. We also utilized him on the RICO task force that I was on for a couple years. And then he had responded countless homicide investigations during my career.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:44:27):

Eventually, does Mr. Ford leave the crime scene that was at Harmon and Las Vegas Boulevard and come and is he the person that takes these pictures and winds up collecting these items?

Dean O'Kelley (02:44:40):

Yes, he is. Fortunately, Dan was already dispatched to the area of the Maxim for the patrol units that had called out on the radio, the shots that were fired. They were taking a report for damaged vehicles that were there and Dan had already been dispatched to that. So he wasn't far away when the shots rang out and he was requested to come to that scene.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:45:02):

Sitting there in front of you is State's proposed Exhibit 129. Looking at State's proposed Exhibit number 129, do you recognize what that item is?

Dean O'Kelley (02:45:23):

Yes, I do. I've seen and reviewed the handwritten evidence inventory that was authored by Dan Ford. I can see that that's his handwriting. It's also his initials and P number that are on the package for the Winchester cartridge cases.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:45:40):

And then there's a red seal on the back of here. That would've been placed on by Mr. Ford, correct?

Dean O'Kelley (02:45:52):

The red seal is not. It is marked up here at the top for his P number. This doesn't look... I don't know. Oh, that he wrote the date on that. So 9/7 of '96. So he initialed in the top corner and then put the date down in the bottom corner. Yes.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:46:09):

And all these blue seals are the times that the forensic lab has opened this package in order to look at these items and potentially do some testing?

Dean O'Kelley (02:46:17):

That's correct. But I do remember from the evidence inventory that Dan had indicated that these cartridge cases were checked for fingerprints at the time with negative results.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:46:31):

So I'm going to have... Well, I guess I'll move to admit 129, Judge.

Michael Sanft (02:46:35):

No objection, Your Honor.

Judge Carli Kierny (02:46:35):

Okay. So admitted.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:46:39):

I'm going to have you cut this, not alone a seal, if there's a place left to do it.

Dean O'Kelley (02:46:41):

Is there a place?

Marc DiGiacomo (02:46:45):

I think if you cut right along there, you can pull those items out.

Dean O'Kelley (02:46:48):

Yeah, down here at the bottom, I can. I don't think we have to go too far.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:46:59):

Let's do that. Let me just pull those items out. And these, well, they will eventually be marked 129, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A through G, but I'm going to show you this one, which has a 14 on the top of it. And you said you remember at least one of them was mangled.

Dean O'Kelley (02:47:46):

Mm-hmm. This one's flattened on the opening. Opposite of the head stamp, it's flattened. So it's been run over.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:47:54):

And there appears to be at least one more of these that has some damage to them. Several of them have damage to them. Is that correct?

Dean O'Kelley (02:48:04):

They're definitely misshapen. A couple of them are. This is actually the closest that I've seen them because when we came out, we just put the cones right over the top of them and didn't mess with them at all. So I'm able to now look at even the primary impacts, which is significant.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:48:22):

Why is that significant?

Dean O'Kelley (02:48:23):

Because a Glock pistol has a rectangular opening for the firing pin and it's vertically oriented on the front of the bolt face for a Glock pistol. And you can tell by looking at the primary impact that that's roughly the shape of the impact on the primer.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:48:43):

So that suggests to you that the weapon was a Glock 40?

Dean O'Kelley (02:48:46):

That's correct.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:48:49):

Now, Detective, or I guess it's Mr. O'Kelley now.

Dean O'Kelley (02:48:53):

Detective Retired, I don't know. Deputy Marshal.

Marc DiGiacomo (02:48:58):

Yeah, Deputy Marshal. There you go. While you're at the scene, are you getting updates on the radio as to potential suspect vehicles that you should be looking for?

Dean O'Kelley (02:49:13):

Periodically. Again, that code red is in effect for quite a while, so there's not a lot of radio traffic that was going on. The call came in initiating the code red at 11:17. We were short distance away and we went code, well, we ran code. So we did lights and siren. It didn't take us very long to get there. I know that Sergeant West waited until there was a complete lull in the radio traffic and announced that we were en route and arrived at the same time. And I believe that was at 11:26. We had been there before that. So we were there before 11:20. We were already there at the scene. So at about a little bit past...

Dean O'Kelley (02:50:00):

So at about a little bit past 11:30, we got an update on the description, rough description of a light-colored Cadillac. I know at some point on the CAD report it said late '90s. It had to be late '80s, right? This is '96. And there was also some indication that it was in good condition, which would say that it was an older vehicle than late '90s, right. So we were looking for a light colored, possibly white Cadillac with two Black male occupants. And there was a report that it was northbound on Audrie, which now Audrie Lane is the link, right? It's the link lane. So it's on the west side of the Maxim going north. There was some report that possibly that's where the suspect vehicle had gone.

Mr. DiGiacomo (02:50:56):

So the initial report says light-colored Cadillac, last seen northbound on Audrie.

Dean O'Kelley (02:51:01):

Right with two Black males at that point.

Mr. DiGiacomo (02:51:03):

Do you wind up getting updates throughout the evening as to the vehicle you're looking for?

Dean O'Kelley (02:51:11):

We did. I'd say it was about an hour or so, about quarter to 1:00 maybe right around that time that we got an update that we were looking for that same white Cadillac in good condition, but potentially occupied now by four Black males and it was southbound on Koval. That made a little bit more sense to us, especially that we were out on the eastbound lanes of Koval right just short of the intersection and that the Cadillac had to have been to the south of the BMW, and it made more sense that they would've made a right turn. So that definitely clicked when we were told they were southbound on Koval.

Mr. DiGiacomo (02:52:01):

Does there come a point in time when you do what's known as an ATL or attempt to locate that particular vehicle?

Dean O'Kelley (02:52:10):

Yes. Thankfully because Dan Ford was not too far away. We were able to get relieved from our protection of the crime scene where the cartridge cases were located. And I think we cleared exactly an hour after the initial Code Red was called, and that was the first thing that we did was make every... We went south on Koval. We checked areas that we frequented in the gang unit looking for potentially really any light-colored Cadillac. You know the kind of the yellowish lights that we have in town, the street lights that they use for low, so it's not too much light in town. Those can kind of throw you off on color. So we were looking for any light-colored Cadillac.

Mr. DiGiacomo (02:53:00):

We'll put back up state's exhibit one. During all this time period that you and your partner ATL-ed for this white Cadillac, did you ever drive into the parking lot of the carriage house?

Dean O'Kelley (02:53:14):

No. I can say that in my 35 years, I've never been in the carriage house.

Mr. DiGiacomo (02:53:20):

Thank you. I pass the witness.

The Judge (02:53:23):

Okay. Cross-examination, Mr. Sanft.

Michael Sanft (02:53:27):

I'm sorry, sir, what's your last name again?

Dean O'Kelley (02:53:30):

O'Kelley. O apostrophe K-E-L-L-E-Y.

Michael Sanft (02:53:32):

Mr. O'Kelley, thank you for being here today. Your testimony obviously, I would imagine before you were here, you probably reviewed your reports, whatever it is you wrote during that time period.

Dean O'Kelley (02:53:45):

I didn't write any, certainly. Even after I went to homicide, I wasn't involved in the investigation for this case. I did review the CAD report, the computer-aided dispatch report, noting those times. I don't have that great a memory, so I'm going to have to tell you that. And that handwritten evidence inventory by Dan Ford. I have both copies right here in my notebook.

Michael Sanft (02:54:10):

I see. So at the time you retired, you retired as a homicide detective?

Dean O'Kelley (02:54:14):

I did.

Michael Sanft (02:54:15):

And then at that point you came back to work in the cold case unit as an investigator?

Dean O'Kelley (02:54:21):

I did, yes.

Michael Sanft (02:54:22):

All right. Now a couple things. First of all, when you retired as a detective with homicide, were there any outstanding reports that you had not drafted when you left?

Dean O'Kelley (02:54:33):

I can tell you that as, and people love me, so they got a limousine and we had a big party, so as there was a limousine out in front of headquarters at 400 Martin Luther King, I was typing the last officer's report that I needed to personally finish. I was leaving a partner behind whose name is also Dean. So he was able to tie up any of the cases that we had at that point. But I would say there were, but the ones that I knew I needed to get done before I left, I got done.

Michael Sanft (02:55:13):

And the reason why you prioritized those ones is because I would imagine they're still open investigations and you're handing it off to the next person to continue with your work.

Dean O'Kelley (02:55:22):

That's correct. It makes it easier for them if it's tied up as best we can.

Michael Sanft (02:55:26):

Right. Did you take any of those cases with you when you went over to the cold case unit?

Dean O'Kelley (02:55:33):

When I came back to cold case, that was the original reason that I even agreed to do cold case homicide investigation was because of personally had investigated. One in particular. So as soon as I came back to cold case homicide, the very first thing I did was go and pull Jamie Sheldon's case and bring it over to my desk. That's the first case that went there, and was able to work. I was honored to be able to work on cases like that and others that I had been a part of when I was a detective, yes.

Michael Sanft (02:56:15):

So in terms of... Just explain to the jury what a cold case is. Can you explain that?

Dean O'Kelley (02:56:21):

Certainly. So a cold case is officially cold when the detectives who are originally assigned to it are no longer there, whether they transferred out or they retired. If there isn't an original detective assigned to the case, it's considered cold, right? No one's assigned to it. Those cases can be handed off to other detectives that are still in the unit.

(02:56:47)
I remember when Marty Wildman left the department, he came over to me personally and said, "Hey, I'm handing Teresa Ensana to you. Can you take this case on and continue to follow it up?" It's considered cold because he's gone, right? As soon as he left, it's officially a cold case. But if there's a detective who was originally assigned to the case, it's their case until they're done. You're not going to go stepping on toes and just pulling cases and start working on other people's stuff unless they asked you to do it.

Michael Sanft (02:57:20):

And with regards to the cold case unit, I'm assuming there's probably two detectives who are the official detectives for the unit. Then you have investigators, retired homicide detectives that help with the investigation?

Dean O'Kelley (02:57:32):

That's correct. Initially when Sergeant Hefner, sergeant in homicide, but then came back with me at the same time. So the two of us came back and we were on our own. We had a sergeant that was assigned to us that basically they were a signature block. We could pull any case that we wanted and work on those. The department saw, thankfully, a lot to do with the work that we were getting accomplished where we solved 20, 25- year-old cases. And the department's able to go to the media and say, "Look, we're not giving up after all these years. We're going to continue to follow these cases and solve them."

(02:58:10)
Because of that success level, then the department dedicated two full-time detectives that were still in homicide to the cold case unit. And then we had, I want to say three, four more cold case investigators that were assigned to us. So I think we had a total of five or six at one point, plus the two detectives and a dedicated sergeant to the cold case unit.

Michael Sanft (02:58:39):

So in terms of your work in the cold case as an investigator, you're not a detective, right?

Dean O'Kelley (02:58:46):

No.

Michael Sanft (02:58:47):

So there is a difference in terms of your responsibilities versus the responsibilities of a detective?

Dean O'Kelley (02:58:52):

Correct.

Michael Sanft (02:58:53):

Because the detective would be the law enforcement officer.

Dean O'Kelley (02:58:55):

Certainly.

Michael Sanft (02:58:56):

And you are a person helping the law enforcement officer.

Dean O'Kelley (02:58:59):

Essentially, I mean, we can still steer the investigation where we want it to go. We're doing interviews, we're doing those things, but say authoring a search warrant. So we run into a situation where we need a search warrant done. It may get written by one of us, but it's going to be sworn to as an affidavit by a detective on the department who's a sworn police officer.

Michael Sanft (02:59:22):

Have you ever drafted a report, I don't know, eight years after you started an investigation?

Dean O'Kelley (02:59:30):

Well, because a cold case, yes, certainly.

Michael Sanft (02:59:33):

But just as a police officer or a detective, have you ever waited, say, years to draft an actual report on something?

Dean O'Kelley (02:59:40):

I don't know what would be my record-breaking delay in authoring a report, but I'd say if you're dealing with a case where there's nobody in custody, like you haven't arrested anybody, I mean, I'm probably pushing two years before I finally said, and even reluctantly said, "I'm going to close this officer's report. It's signed off because we've run out of investigative leads. We're to that point. There's really nothing else coming in. And now that's officially done."

(03:00:15)
Then there could be maybe somebody calling up or we could have somebody that gets in a jam where they're now looking at serious time, this has happened to us in cold case, where now that person says, "Hey, I have information on a murder." So now it's completely open. Now the case is back up and running, and there would be a new officer's report started at that point in time to complete that investigation. I know where the gun is. I know who did the shooting. And now we've got a solved case after 15, 20 years.

Michael Sanft (03:00:49):

Now have you ever delayed writing an officer's report after going to the grand jury presenting evidence on that same case?

Dean O'Kelley (03:00:58):

Yeah, I would say that I've gone to grand jury before officer's reports are done. I would say that I've gone to grand jury before I've started an officer's report. Again, because for me personally, and for a lot of the guys that I work with, I'm not completely OCD, but I mean, certainly there's things that I need to get done or I'm not going to be able to sleep, that kind of thing, or I'm not going to be able to sleep, that kind of thing. You may feel that way. But I always get the case management form started and maintained up to date. It's going to be up to date. If you make a phone call to me, I'm going to document a date, time, phone call.

(03:01:39)
That may not go into the alternate officer's report because it's superfluous information, didn't mean anything, but I'm going to keep that record in the CMF. I might not even start the officer's report for months, and grand jury may have already happened. I feel now some pressure to get that done because somebody... If I'm going to grand jury, more than likely we have somebody in custody. And I want the district attorney's office to have the benefit of a completed officer's report, although it's not necessary.

Michael Sanft (03:02:11):

Right. And so if you had submitted it to the grand jury or done your grand jury, you're telling us at some point you could delay finalizing your officer's report?

Dean O'Kelley (03:02:21):

Yes.

Michael Sanft (03:02:22):

Okay. Now would you delay that officer's report until after you retire?

Dean O'Kelley (03:02:30):

Well, because I still have a partner that hasn't retired, I can have confidence in doing that. We definitely did have that happen. I recall specifically a double murder that was not. The officer's report wasn't done when I left because I knew Detective Raetz was going to be continuing on with it.

Michael Sanft (03:02:53):

Right. So you knew that the other detective would still be the detective handling the case through because you are now retired.

Dean O'Kelley (03:02:59):

No question.

Michael Sanft (03:02:59):

But what if you didn't have that detective there that you're a partner? Would you have delayed after you retired to draft your officer's report?

Dean O'Kelley (03:03:07):

I would not.

Michael Sanft (03:03:09):

How about-

Dean O'Kelley (03:03:09):

I wouldn't be able to do it, right? I mean, I just know that I wouldn't be able to do it. That's why when the limo's out in front of headquarters, I'm typing an officer's report. I literally left the... I got the officer's report done and then went downstairs. I was done, I was retired.

Michael Sanft (03:03:26):

Now can you explain to us, I'm sorry for interrupting, but can you explain for us a little bit about why reports are so important to you in your line of work as a homicide detective?

Dean O'Kelley (03:03:38):

Reports document everything, right? I mean, you need to document your observations. You need to document evidence. And for us in homicide or even in the gang unit before that, we did that with officer's reports. Officers' reports don't become evidence. Officer's reports are so anybody picking up that case file can walk through the investigation from beginning to the last part of an officer's report is conclusion. So it may be a conclusion as to what you believe happened and you don't have somebody in custody. It can be a completed officer's report where the case isn't solved. It's still open. At that point when you're doing the conclusion, it's more or less your opinion, this is what we believe based on everything else that precedes it in the officer's report.

Michael Sanft (03:04:32):

Okay. And that would of course help you later if you ever were called to testify in front of a jury to recall what happened.

Dean O'Kelley (03:04:39):

Oh, absolutely. That's the go-to document for somebody who's preparing for trial is that officer's report. I mean, it can be lengthy. I've written officer's reports that are 70 pages long.

Michael Sanft (03:04:53):

And with regard to those reports and being 70 pages long, fair to say that details are super important when doing this kind of investigation?

Dean O'Kelley (03:05:02):

They are.

Michael Sanft (03:05:03):

And that would be helpful for you to remember details in the future, right, to write a good report?

Dean O'Kelley (03:05:08):

Right. The more extensive and the more detailed your report, the better off you're going to be, the more prepared you're going to be. But in addition to that, you could be documenting things that you observed or that you knew at the time you were doing an investigation that you don't realize were important. So I could document something in a crime scene that seems like it's innocuous, something that just doesn't seem like it's that important. And then later on when maybe a suspect's in custody or the investigation's further, then you find out, oh, that one item that you made a note of now becomes important because the suspect touched it or that was the murder weapon that was cleaned up and stuck over there and nobody realized it.

Michael Sanft (03:05:58):

Now let's shift gears a little bit here. So you're no longer a detective, you're now working with a cold case. Have you taken on any cold cases that weren't yours to begin with?

Dean O'Kelley (03:06:09):

Certainly.

Michael Sanft (03:06:10):

And what is typically the standard operating procedure when you are starting your investigation as a cold case investigator?

Dean O'Kelley (03:06:17):

So you're pulling the case file, right? And it can be extensive depending on the murder, depending on the case that you're looking at, can be rather extensive. Some of the cases that we were pulling had pouches in them with VHS tapes. There were separate boxes that had VHS tapes in them. You probably may not even know what a VHS tape. And we had cassette tapes, right, actual physical cassette tapes. So we had to maintain a VHS player in homicide to be able to review those things. So we had some of the archaic methods to review evidence. We would go through the entire case file and that would give us a starting point.

(03:07:04)
As you might imagine, what we're looking for in cold case, because the advances in technology is do we have any trace evidence that wasn't analyzed? Do we have any fingerprints that weren't analyzed? Do we have any DNA that maybe this precedes DNA? We looked at some cases that were before I was born. It's my 65th lap around the sun. We were looking at cases before I was even on this planet. So you go through the entire thing and you try and make these heads or tails of where the detective took that investigation at that point.

(03:07:38)
Sometimes that could be difficult, especially if you're dealing with one of those post-it people. You're dealing with one of the ones that were writing notes on cocktail napkins and stuff and keeping them in the case file. We'd pull little notes that were like, I have no clue how this relates to the investigation at all, don't know if they talked to this person, didn't talk to this person. Was this a witness? Was this a secondary victim? We didn't know. So we'd have to try and track those down. And some of the cases were so old that people that we were dealing with, they're deceased.

Michael Sanft (03:08:11):

Did you have any success with what you did on the cold case unit?

Dean O'Kelley (03:08:14):

Oh, certainly, yeah. We had closed quite a few.

Michael Sanft (03:08:18):

So when you say closed, meaning that you were able to find out basically the information you needed, the suspect or whatever the case was?

Dean O'Kelley (03:08:25):

Yes, absolutely. All the way through to an arrest and prosecution and conviction, yes.

Michael Sanft (03:08:30):

And with regards to the success you had on the cold case, did any of those cases not involve some type of technological thing like either a trace, DNA, or fingerprints?

Dean O'Kelley (03:08:46):

I'd say there was... None come to my mind that we didn't have something that was redone and reviewed and then came to a conclusion or pointed to a specific person that we were then able to go and interview. We had a couple, we have one. We had one where we flew to Toledo and we got a confession on a murder that happened here in Las Vegas because that person was already doing life without there for another murder that he had committed. I don't recall that we had any physical evidence in there that we needed. He confessed to it basically. What do I have to lose? I'm already doing life without.

Michael Sanft (03:09:33):

So he basically was in custody ready for a murder in another state and basically confessed and said, "Hey, I'm confessing to this murder in Nevada."

Dean O'Kelley (03:09:41):

Correct.

Michael Sanft (03:09:42):

So it wasn't like you found, you know...

Dean O'Kelley (03:09:45):

We did. I mean, you look at some of these case files and they're definitely pointing towards a specific person. Every indication is that this is who you're dealing with, and that you couldn't get it across the finish line. And like Jamie Sheldon, I brought up earlier, I know who did that murder, but it's whether or not there's enough to get across the finish line with that piece of evidence that's going to be where the district attorneys are willing to take that case to trial and you're waiting for that one more thing. So it just stays there waiting for that one more piece of evidence to come in.

(03:10:25)
And that happened with some of the cold cases where it's like, hey, we knew who this person was. I remember one specifically where we had a guy where we knew in the gang unit who we were looking for. And then I got to homicide and then looked up case files and saw that that person had never been charged. I'm like, how did he never get charged? We knew who it was. And we were able to then put enough together to arrest him and get a conviction.

Michael Sanft (03:10:51):

And the arrest was because of either DNA or fingerprints or something along those lines?

Dean O'Kelley (03:10:57):

That one, no. We had video surveillance that existed at the time on a VHS tape from a 7-Eleven back when they were ordering over him every seven days. And so it was grainy and you're trying to get a clear enough picture, but we were able to. And we had physical evidence at the time that existed at the time connecting him to other cases, and we were able to get a conviction on that particular case with nothing new.

Michael Sanft (03:11:23):

Okay. So I just want to make sure I'm clear. So that was video surveillance with some other physical evidence that helped you solve that particular-

Dean O'Kelley (03:11:30):

Those cases, yes.

Michael Sanft (03:11:31):

Okay. All right. And then in terms of your work, the night of what happened here, and if I could just ask [inaudible 03:11:45]. Does this help a little bit here about just zooming into where this thing happened?

Dean O'Kelley (03:12:06):

Right. The red triangle or the red rectangle there is where the cartridge cases are located near the intersection. I think the closest piece of evidence was 60 feet away from Koval. And they were out in the travel lane, probably 14, 15 feet away from the south curb.

Michael Sanft (03:12:28):

Okay. So my question's to you's very specific. You mentioned a little bit ago about what potentially would be a white Cadillac traveling north on Audrie or Aubrey? You could step out, Dean, if you want, and just actually point with the... You can just point at the screen from over there so the jury can see.

Dean O'Kelley (03:12:49):

So this is Koval. This is now the west end, right? Used to be the maximum. And this is the Audrie Lane going north. And then down in here is Audrie Street that cuts over. It actually cuts south and then goes all the way over the boulevard. But the initial report was that we had this light color Cadillac occupied by two BMAs that went north on Audrie. So they would have to, with the entourage that everybody had U-turned and gone this direction, they would have to have followed and then turned right to go up on Audrie. There's really no way for you to get from eastbound Flamingo at Koval to Northbound Audrie without making a U-turn.

Michael Sanft (03:13:35):

Okay. And just if you could stay there for a second. The other part here is that I'm just pointing again with my pen and that would be the area of where you found and located the bullets, the cartridge cases?

Dean O'Kelley (03:13:45):

Cartridge cases, yeah. In the eastbound lane, I think the number three travel lane primarily kind of straddled in the lane there a little bit right here before you get to Koval.

Michael Sanft (03:13:56):

Now, if you can describe for us the street. So on that street right there, and I'm just pointing to the part of Flamingo that's, I guess, west of Koval and then between Audrie and Koval, this area here. Is there a concrete divider that's in that area?

Dean O'Kelley (03:14:16):

No, there was not a concrete divider, no. And I think now it's like those yellow plastic cones that are every two feet now separating it when you come up because on eastbound Flamingo, there's two left turn lanes to go north on Koval, three travel lanes, and then a right turn lane to go south on Koval.

Michael Sanft (03:14:39):

So for instance, if cars are going to make a U-turn and turn around and follow, like say for instance, the black BMW, right? The other cars could just basically just make a left-hand turn and go right back. They don't have to go in procession around and keep going. Fair?

Dean O'Kelley (03:14:53):

Yeah. Well, now they would be hitting all those yellow cones. So I don't know. I don't think back then. I think he could probably just right there. It's a violation of the law.

Michael Sanft (03:15:07):

It is.

Dean O'Kelley (03:15:07):

Yes, you could certainly make a U-turn.

Michael Sanft (03:15:10):

Because my understanding is those cones that you're talking about would be actually on Koval to prevent people. I guess it's like to stop traffic from merging or having too much lanes or traffic in that area. Do you recall that?

Dean O'Kelley (03:15:22):

I know all the yellow cones, because I took a fellow marshal to the airport yesterday and the lady in the box actually took me north on Coval to pass that intersection. So I was able to see all the yellow plastic. They're permanent cones that are there on roadway now dividing the north or east and westbound trail.

Michael Sanft (03:15:42):

Right. But at the time, your recollection back in 1996, you don't know if there were cones up at that point?

Dean O'Kelley (03:15:47):

No, there wasn't. I know there wasn't. And it wasn't a Jersey wall, so I think the [inaudible 03:15:52] could just make the turn. There might've been a curb, there might've been a cement curb, but I don't see that in the photo, and I don't have an independent recollection of it.

Michael Sanft (03:16:01):

Gotcha. So those cars are, if we're trying to envision the BMW getting shot at and at some point it's making a U-turn. There's some discussion about rims on the vehicle being messed up because of...

Dean O'Kelley (03:16:15):

It's possible.

Michael Sanft (03:16:16):

And then as it's going down, the other cars would've just either just turned around and immediate led to it.

Dean O'Kelley (03:16:22):

I know because we never went to Harmon and the Boulevard and never saw the entourage, the other vehicles that had gone down.

Michael Sanft (03:16:29):

Your Honor, I have no further questions. Thank you.

The Judge (03:16:32):

Anything further, Mr. DiGiacomo?

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:16:38):

Briefly. I don't know if you retired on a Friday, but if you knew when you retired on Friday that on Monday you were going to be right back there as a cold case investigator, you wouldn't feel, or would you have felt the need to finish that Friday before you got in the limousine?

Dean O'Kelley (03:16:56):

I think I would've been okay to let it go. Yeah, that'd have been all right and skip that part.

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:17:01):

Yeah. Let me ask you this. Had there been at least one case, a case with you and I, in fact, where there was never an officer's report that was able to be completed?

Dean O'Kelley (03:17:13):

No. Debbie Flores Narvaez.

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:17:16):

Is there any requirement that there be an officer's report created?

Dean O'Kelley (03:17:22):

No. Again, officer's report's not evidence. It's just kind of a guideline to go through the case file itself. There was in the case that we're talking about a case management form that went all the way through the investigation. So it really wasn't necessary to put it on a trial and get a successful conviction.

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:17:42):

You mentioned as well that old case files, you've looked at, you said case files from before you were even born.

Dean O'Kelley (03:17:51):

Yes.

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:17:54):

You don't know if all of the reports that were ever generated were in that file or not in that file when you get the case, correct?

Dean O'Kelley (03:18:03):

I could say that there were some case files that we pulled that were... They weren't even in three ring binders anymore. They were in accordion files and there were definitely things missing over time. The frustrating part of cold cases, going to pull evidence and seeing that it had long been destroyed wasn't even available anymore, which shouldn't happen, but it sometimes does. And so you're trying to piece together the case even without some pieces of evidence that you think is crucial.

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:18:36):

So despite not having maybe everything that the original detectives have, you don't just give up. You still try and solve the crime?

Dean O'Kelley (03:18:43):

Exactly. Well, you go redo it, right? I mean, if there's indication... Again, if you got a cocktail napkin with a name and a date of birth on there, but you don't know how that was involved, then if that person's still around, you go interview them. In cold case, we ended up doing a bunch of traveling to where we would go do those interviews and sit down with people. I mean, being a witness to or being involved or even connecting remotely to a violent incident like that or a murder, that's called a significant emotional event. You're going to remember very specific details. I'm sure in your own life you've had that where something really significant hits you, you can remember what you were wearing, you can remember the smell, you can remember where people are standing. So we were able to just go back and redo that interview and then put that into the case file even though it was missing.

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:19:38):

And you sort of said this, but in a lot of those case files, law enforcement knows what they believe to be the story. They just don't have the witnesses to present in a courtroom to establish the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

Dean O'Kelley (03:19:56):

Oh, no question. I would say, especially, and during my two years in investigation in the gang unit, also the two years on the RICO task force that we were involved in, we were dealing with gang-related crimes. And there were many cases where we had something happen with we knew 50 people around. There were 50 people there and you start talking to witnesses and everybody has the same statement. I heard shots, I ran, and the police stopped me for no reason. So you don't get that level of cooperation because people are afraid. People maybe think because they think gangs might be involved, they don't want to say anything. They keep it to themselves, and they live with the fact that they didn't help.

(03:20:46)
But then with cold case, we were able to come back to some of these older cases where now that young gang member that might have had 7% body fat back then and was in his prime and was scary is now an older toothless bulldog that's resting in the shade. So people were not afraid to now come forward and say, "Yeah, I was there. I saw it. I know exactly who did it, and I can prove it." So we were able to solve some cases like that, which was good.

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:21:18):

And you even mentioned a situation where you read through the file, you're like, I know who did it. You flew to Toledo and he confessed.

Dean O'Kelley (03:21:29):

Correct.

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:21:30):

And that can happen in cold cases as well.

Dean O'Kelley (03:21:33):

Yes, it does, thankfully.

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:21:35):

Nothing further.

The Judge (03:21:36):

Mr. DiGiacomo, are you moving to admit Exhibits 129A through G?

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:21:40):

I was. I was going to have her mark them first before I offer them.

The Judge (03:21:44):

Okay. Was there an objection to the admission of them?

Mr. DiGiacomo (03:21:46):

No, Your Honor.

The Judge (03:21:46):

Okay. They will be admitted and you may mark them. Jessica. And Mr. Sanft, further questions? Okay.

Michael Sanft (03:21:55):

Sorry, I thought I was done with it before.

Dean O'Kelley (03:21:57):

No worries.

Michael Sanft (03:21:58):

So with regards to this incident, I want to make sure I'm clear here. You thought you had a suspect. What did you do? Send him a letter and say you need to confess to this crime? I mean, how did that work out with the thing that happened in Toledo?

Dean O'Kelley (03:22:13):

Oh, in Toledo?

Michael Sanft (03:22:14):

Yeah.

Dean O'Kelley (03:22:14):

We had put together enough of the case to know with every bit of confidence that it was him, even to the point where we were able to author an arrest warrant for him. And then we were in contact with the correctional facility that he was in custody and let them know that we wanted to come out. They actually approached him to let him know that detectives from Las Vegas want to come out and speak with you. And he agreed, right? And he's sitting in custody for serving life for actually killing two people, a child and the child's father. And so I think probably just for entertainment value alone, he agreed to talk to us and we were able to come out there, sit down with him. They pulled him out of his cell obviously and away from the rest of the inmates. And we talked to him for a couple hours before lunch, and then we broke for lunch, and then after lunch he told us he did.

Michael Sanft (03:23:16):

So you put together information here in Las Vegas, that was all corroborated, right? I mean, you had information, you had evidence that you were putting together, right?

Dean O'Kelley (03:23:24):

Correct.

Michael Sanft (03:23:24):

And all that evidence pointed towards this particular person.

Dean O'Kelley (03:23:27):

It did.

Michael Sanft (03:23:28):

And then at some point you said, "We just don't have enough. We would want to hear from this guy himself." And that's when you went out to Toledo to confront him on it?

Dean O'Kelley (03:23:36):

I think that we would've been able to get a conviction without him telling us that he did it, but why not? I mean, if we went there and he said, "[inaudible 03:23:50], I'm not going to tell you. You flew all the way out here, and now I'm not going to tell you that I did it." I mean, we still would've gone forward, but it certainly bolsters the case to have him say, "Yes, I did it."

Dean O'Kelley (03:24:00):

... the case to have him say, "Yes, I did it, and this is what I did before and after," which is what he was able to do.

Michael Sanft (03:24:07):

Right. So in the case you were developing, you had corroborating evidence here in Las Vegas? Yes. And this was just the final cherry on top to actually hear him say the words that, "Yeah, I did it." Agreed. Now, the corroborating evidence you had here though was your investigation, I would assume that it had some physical evidence, witnesses, that kind of thing to it?

Dean O'Kelley (03:24:28):

It did.

Michael Sanft (03:24:29):

Okay. And your testimony here right now is literally you don't necessarily even need his confession. You could have just done it without.

Dean O'Kelley (03:24:38):

Yes.

Michael Sanft (03:24:40):

Now, in addition to that, obviously if you didn't have those things, you suspected somebody, but you don't have DNA, you don't have fingerprints, you don't have an eyewitness, you don't have surveillance video, you don't have anything at all that would tie that person to whatever the crime you believe has occurred, that would mean at that particular point you don't have it, right?

Dean O'Kelley (03:25:03):

I would agree with that.

Michael Sanft (03:25:04):

Now, in addition to that, your testimony here is, and I want to make sure I'm clear, you were a gang person before, and those field interview cards would be helpful if you were looking into a potential crime where someone is accused of the crime, like look at those field interview cards, right?

Dean O'Kelley (03:25:22):

Field interview cards are very valuable. I worked bike patrol for the gang unit and we filled out probably more FI cards, field interview cards, than a lot of the gang detectives did. They got me voluntold to test for gangs. And so yeah, field interview cards are very, very valuable piece of information because you're contacting somebody in a non-threatening, non-arrest, non-custodial environment, and they're telling you, they're giving you information that you're able to document.

Michael Sanft (03:25:53):

And if you could explain to the jury a little bit what a field interview card is.

Dean O'Kelley (03:25:58):

So I was talking about that stop that we were on before the code red was called. So we were talking to some gang members that were gathered out in a neighborhood that we were familiar with, with gang members that we were familiar with. And so each time they're contacted, we would do a field interview card, little small three by five card. This is a rights card, but just like this, it's white. And it has all of their pertinent information, name, date of birth, height, weight, eye color, all those things, where you're contacting them. And there's a narrative portion on the back. And mostly gang members in that type of environment would say, "Yeah, hey, I'm 18th Street. I'm like," whatever, "for life. I'm 18th Street for life." So you document that. That's 18th Street for life because that's maintained in what you've heard, the gang file for a period of time until that person says, "No, I don't affiliate with them. I'm not doing that anymore. I'm away from it." And then if that stays consistent for a certain amount of time, then that person's no longer in the gang file.

Michael Sanft (03:27:10):

Is it every time that that person comes in contact with law enforcement that a new card is generated because it's a physical thing?

Dean O'Kelley (03:27:17):

A new card is... Well, I always did it. It documented my stop. It documented my activity. It documented our work. Plus it starts the time clock every time. So every time that person admits, every time that person's in the company of other known gang members, and then it starts that time clock so that they stay in the gang file until that time expires. So you want the clock to continue to start over.

Michael Sanft (03:27:48):

Okay. And just one last question, and I hate hammering the heck out of this report stuff, but in terms of the example that was given to you by the state, they said, "Well, if you retire and then you go into cold case, you can continue on with the investigation if it's a cold case," right?

Dean O'Kelley (03:28:05):

I would. Yeah, definitely.

Michael Sanft (03:28:08):

How about the district attorney's office? You're an investigator with district attorney's office. Does the district attorney's office have a cold case team?

Dean O'Kelley (03:28:17):

We didn't have anybody assigned to us. At the time... Because I left in '23, January of '23. At the time, we didn't have anybody that was catching our cold cases specifically, so I couldn't tell you one way or the other.

Michael Sanft (03:28:30):

Right. So you are testifying that Metro has a cold case unit to which if you are a detective with homicide and you want to take a case with you, you could have done that, right?

Dean O'Kelley (03:28:38):

Certainly.

Michael Sanft (03:28:38):

But with regards to taking your case as a homicide detective and now working for the district attorney's office, that's not how that typically works, right?

Dean O'Kelley (03:28:49):

I wouldn't know how they function with it because I know we would put a case file together and we submit that case that gets approved by the DA's office and that the district attorney may recognize certain things that need to be cleaned up or need to be followed up on that maybe wouldn't come back to the detective in homicide. Because keep in mind, if we're working a big case, we're still catching new cases. You don't catch a big case and then all of a sudden, time out. I get to do this, work this case. You're still catching new cases. We worked one weekend in 2003 where we had six murders in one weekend. So you're up going into the weekend and up on rotation coming out of the weekend because everybody, all the teams caught a case.

Michael Sanft (03:29:36):

And so just for the jury so they understand. Metro is the police department, they do investigations.

Dean O'Kelley (03:29:42):

Correct.

Michael Sanft (03:29:44):

Once you're done with investigation, you develop a suspect, you then submit that request to the DA's office and the district attorney's office for prosecution.

Dean O'Kelley (03:29:52):

Correct.

Michael Sanft (03:29:53):

The district attorney's office, on the other hand, do not have investigators that initiate cases to be charged, right?

Dean O'Kelley (03:30:01):

I don't know how the DA's investigators run their... I know I had contact with them multiple times over the years because now we've involved the DA's office in what we've produced because we seek the truth. DA's office seeks justice. But I know there may be some incidental things that come up that an investigator will handle rather than taking it back to the homicide detective for follow up.

Michael Sanft (03:30:29):

In your experience throughout law enforcement, even up to currently, have you ever seen an investigator or the Clark County District Attorney's Office be the primary officer on a case?

Dean O'Kelley (03:30:42):

No.

Michael Sanft (03:30:43):

No further questions. Thank you, Your Honor.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:30:44):

Anything further, Mr. DiGiacomo?

Marc DiGiacomo (03:30:44):

No.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:31:44):

Any questions from the jury? We do have at least one. Can I have the parties approach? Looks like we only have one. All right. Question from our jurors. There are eight cones, but only seven glass bottles in evidence. Was there another bullet not accounted for in the envelopes or were there only seven cases located on scene?

Dean O'Kelley (03:31:59):

Good question. So the cone that was closest in the picture at the... If you remember, I said that was a bullet fragment. So underneath that cone was just a piece of a bullet, mostly just the lead. And so the bullet fragment plus the seven cases.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:32:17):

Any follow-up questions based on that, Mr. DiGiacomo?

Marc DiGiacomo (03:32:19):

Yes. Detective, you opened the seven casings, correct?

Dean O'Kelley (03:32:23):

Yes.

Marc DiGiacomo (03:32:24):

All right. I'm showing you what's been marked as State's Proposed Exhibit number 130. These appear to be all the bullets and fragments that were collected by Dan Ford.

Dean O'Kelley (03:32:35):

That's correct. They were also listed on the evidence inventory that I've seen a copy of. I recognize the handwriting and initial and P number for Dan Ford.

Marc DiGiacomo (03:32:45):

Thank you. Once again, there's also a blue stripe on here. I'm not going to open this one. There's also a blue stripe on here indicating that they were forensically tested as well.

Dean O'Kelley (03:32:58):

Yes.

Marc DiGiacomo (03:33:04):

Judge, I'll move to admit 130.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:33:05):

Any objection?

Michael Sanft (03:33:06):

No objection, Your Honor.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:33:08):

Okay. Any other questions that you have?

Marc DiGiacomo (03:33:13):

None.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:33:14):

Mr. Sanft, questions on this question section?

Michael Sanft (03:33:17):

No, Your Honor.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:33:18):

Okay, perfect. All right. You are free to go.

Dean O'Kelley (03:33:20):

Thank you, Your Honor.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:33:24):

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, at this time, we are going to take our lunch break. During this recess, you are admonished not to talk or converse amongst yourselves or with anyone else on any subject connected to the trial or read, watch, or listen to any report of or commentary on the trial of any person connected with this case by [inaudible 03:33:38] of information, including without limitation, newspaper, television, the internet, and radio, or form or express any opinion on any subject connected with the trial until the case is submitted to you. We'll be in recess until 1:45. Please rise for the jury. So 1:45, guys. All right. Jury has exited. Anything we need to address outside the presence?

Marc DiGiacomo (03:34:28):

No, Your Honor.

Binu Palal (03:34:28):

Not from the state, Judge.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:34:29):

We'll be in recess. Thanks, guys. We're back on record in State versus Davis, which is C377407. Is there anything we need to address outside the presence before we bring the jury back in?

Marc DiGiacomo (03:36:17):

No, Your Honor.

Binu Palal (03:36:17):

No, Your Honor.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:36:18):

Okay. Sounds good. Let's bring the jury in. Please rise for the jury, guys.

Marc DiGiacomo (03:36:30):

Okay. The funny thing is, if you stand up, I think one of these screens [inaudible 03:36:35]

Judge Carli Kierny (03:36:32):

Do the parties stipulate to the presence of the jury?

Marc DiGiacomo (03:36:32):

Yes, Your Honor.

Binu Palal (03:36:32):

Yes, Your Honor.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:38:42):

You may be seated. All right. Welcome back from lunch, ladies and gentlemen. We're still in the state's case in chief. State, who's your next witness?

Binu Palal (03:38:48):

James McDonald.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:38:52):

McDonald or McConnell? McDonald. You do solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give in this action shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

James McDonald (03:39:50):

Yes.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:39:51):

You say be seated. May I please have you state and spell your first and last name for the record?

James McDonald (03:40:03):

James McDonald. J-A-M-E-S M-C-D-O-N-A-L-D.

Judge Carli Kierny (03:40:08):

Thank you, Mr. McDonald. Mr. Palal, whenever you're ready.

Binu Palal (03:40:11):

Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. McDonald, it's fair to say that you're here because of a court order. Is that right?

James McDonald (03:40:16):

Correct.

Binu Palal (03:40:17):

That you didn't volunteer to come or anything like that?

James McDonald (03:40:19):

Not at all.

Binu Palal (03:40:22):

Okay. But you were instructed by a court that you had to attend?

James McDonald (03:40:27):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:40:28):

Okay. I want to ask you about September 7th, 1996. Were you at Club 662?

James McDonald (03:40:34):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:40:35):

What was Club 662?

James McDonald (03:40:37):

It was a club that Suge bought and we operated it. When he opened, I was head of security through the neighborhood. Just a place to go and hang out.

Binu Palal (03:40:52):

Did the number 662 mean anything?

James McDonald (03:40:57):

Well, to the new guys, that was part of our neighborhood, 662. MOB.

Binu Palal (03:41:03):

Okay. MOB. And when you say MOB, there used to be before Apple iPhones and those types of things. When you had to have to have landlines and you pressed numbers.

James McDonald (03:41:17):

662, yeah.

Binu Palal (03:41:18):

662. There would be letters under those numbers and M and O would be under six. Is that right?

James McDonald (03:41:24):

Correct. Correct.

Binu Palal (03:41:24):

And B would be under two?

James McDonald (03:41:25):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:41:25):

So 662 would be MOB?

James McDonald (03:41:25):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:41:34):

Okay. When you talk about Suge, are you talking about Suge Knight?

James McDonald (03:41:36):

Yes, sir.

Binu Palal (03:41:37):

How do you know Suge?

James McDonald (03:41:39):

He lived in my neighborhood.

Binu Palal (03:41:42):

And is that in Compton?

James McDonald (03:41:43):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:41:43):

Okay. When you were at Club 662, you said you were head of security.

James McDonald (03:41:50):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:41:51):

Was somebody by the name of Reggie Wright Jr. there with you?

James McDonald (03:41:56):

Not at that time.

Binu Palal (03:41:56):

No?

James McDonald (03:41:57):

No.

Binu Palal (03:41:58):

When was he with you?

James McDonald (03:42:00):

I got out of prison in 1988. Suge came and got me in 1988, like four days from coming home. Started another company, Burn Hill Records. Then Death Row Records came. Soon as Death Row was launched, Reggie came a few months after that.

Binu Palal (03:42:25):

Okay. So we're talking about the start of Death Row Records. Reggie wasn't part of Death Row Records initially, but you were?

James McDonald (03:42:33):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:42:33):

And then Suge Knight, was he the boss of Death Row Records?

James McDonald (03:42:39):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:42:42):

Okay. Was Suge from the same neighborhood?

James McDonald (03:42:43):

From the MOB?

Binu Palal (03:42:44):

Yeah.

James McDonald (03:42:47):

I wouldn't say Suge was... He was guilty by association.

Binu Palal (03:42:52):

Okay.

James McDonald (03:42:53):

He wasn't from the neighborhood. He lived in the neighborhood. We looked at him as somebody from the neighborhood. When he started Death Row and started to recruit us, then yes, he from the hood.

Binu Palal (03:43:13):

So I guess there's a difference between living on a certain street versus being from the hood.

James McDonald (03:43:21):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:43:22):

And how would you describe that difference?

James McDonald (03:43:26):

I look at it, you have three different type of friends in the neighborhood. You got gang members, you got gang bangers, and you got men that just guilty by association from living in that area.

Binu Palal (03:43:42):

Okay. And can you tell me what the difference between a gang member and a gang banger is?

James McDonald (03:43:47):

A gang member hangs out. A gang banger handles his business, put in work, do what the gang do.

Binu Palal (03:43:59):

And what was your role with Death Row?

James McDonald (03:44:05):

I was the guy that if something happened, Suge would have you take care of that. Like Snoop Dogg trial, there was issues up there. I was sent up there to make sure those problems didn't happen again.

Binu Palal (03:44:24):

And are those problems, and I'm not asking you to get into specifics, but are those problems meaning issues with other people who might be gang-banging or might be trying to threaten folks, that type of thing?

James McDonald (03:44:36):

Correct. Yes.

Binu Palal (03:44:37):

And you were somebody that Suge relied on to be able to protect his roster of music artists and other things like that?

James McDonald (03:44:46):

Correct.

Binu Palal (03:44:48):

And after you were asked to help out with Snoop, did Snoop have any other problems?

James McDonald (03:44:54):

No. He didn't have one issue at court.

Binu Palal (03:44:57):

Now, I'm going to ask you fast forward a little bit to... Were you familiar with the South Side Compton Crips?

James McDonald (03:45:06):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:45:08):

Would you say they were somebody you were in alliance with or a rivalry with?

James McDonald (03:45:11):

Rival.

Binu Palal (03:45:11):

Okay. And would sometimes that rivalry get violent?

James McDonald (03:45:19):

Anytime you're dealing with the gang life, it's going to be violent at any given time.

Binu Palal (03:45:26):

Are you familiar with somebody who went by the name of Tupac Shakur?

James McDonald (03:45:31):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:45:31):

How are you familiar with Tupac?

James McDonald (03:45:33):

He was assigned to Death Row.

Binu Palal (03:45:35):

And when he was signed with Death Row, would he also hang out with you guys?

James McDonald (03:45:43):

He hung with my brother then. Yeah. Not me.

Binu Palal (03:45:46):

Who was your brother?

James McDonald (03:45:48):

Alton McDonald. Buntry [inaudible 03:45:50].

Binu Palal (03:45:50):

He went by Buntry?

James McDonald (03:45:50):

Yes.

Binu Palal (03:45:53):

Okay. Now, during this time, is it fair to say that Mr. Shakur had an issue with rappers from the East Coast?

James McDonald (03:46:03):

I think Tupac inherit the beef between Suge Knight and Puffy.

Binu Palal (03:46:08):

Okay. That was your perspective of it then?

James McDonald (03:46:10):

That's all it was. And we all fell... Some of us fell victim to it because we allowed ourselves to be a part of the BS, should I say. And that was a situation between record companies, not gangs. So technically it wasn't our business. But when you had 20 men just fresh out of prison and didn't have a way of getting the things they wanted, getting a paycheck from Suge, we did almost anything and everything to get that paycheck.

Binu Palal (03:46:53):

Now, was there another gang that was associated with Bad Boy Records, the East Coast Record Company that Puffy had?

James McDonald (03:47:01):

The only one I know of is South Side.

Binu Palal (03:47:04):

Okay. And did that escalate the tension between Mob Piru and South Side?

James McDonald (03:47:13):

At the time, there was no at war. It was peace. And when the two record companies got into it, Bad Boy went to [inaudible 03:47:24] and Suge came to us. So that intertwined everything. Yes, we had issues.

Binu Palal (03:47:36):

Do you recall any instances that you were at where those issues manifested in itself in terms of violence?

James McDonald (03:47:44):

Are you serious? Don't ask me that right here. I can say that on both sides, when each neighborhood met each other, there was a lot of tension. I'd say that.

Binu Palal (03:48:05):

Okay. Now I want to talk a little bit about September 7th, 1996. Were you in Las Vegas on September 7th of 1996?

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