OH v. Andrew Griffin Day 2

up securing the scene, there were tarps over the roof, but there were still a lot of things still happening.

Mr. Kinsler: I'm going to show him that exhibit. Your Honor, may I approach?

Judge: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: I'm going to show him State's Exhibit 135. I believe that's his report, an eight-page report by this witness.

Judge: Yes, sir.

Mr. Kinsler: Thank you. Do [05:39:00] you recognize Exhibit 135?

Matt Austin: Yes, I do. This was the report that I authored to document the collection efforts and processing that was done for this case.

Mr. Kinsler: [05:39:30] You indicated you arrived and there were other first responders on scene, correct?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: What do you do when you arrive on a scene like this?

Matt Austin: Really the first thing is to get a brief report or intel collection of what happened here. We take all of that with a big grain of salt because things are complex and fluid and sometimes A is not A once you dig into it five hours later, but we need some basis of, is this a sexual assault case [05:40:00] and we're looking for potential fluids? Is this a shooting case and we're looking for bullet holes? Kind of an overall view of what the case is at that point. Then once that information is gathered, starting to just preserve the scene, remove people that don't need to be from the scene or in the scene, and then just starting to document its condition as soon as possible once I arrive.

Mr. Kinsler: I [05:40:30] mentioned that this was an arson. What did the outside of the house look like when you arrived?

Matt Austin: I remember portions of the roof missing. I don't recall if that was the front half or the back half of the house, but there was the smell of smoke in the air, there was burning or singeing, and I definitely remember tarps over the roof.

Mr. Kinsler: Does a fire create challenges for you in collecting evidence?

Matt Austin: [05:41:00] Yes, for sure. One, in the perfect crime scene sense, we would never let anybody go into a scene to include first responders, just because the more people that go in, the more chance for contamination, things like shoe prints or fingerprints, a second set of shoe prints from a cop over the bad guy print, well, now that print is gone. We would love it if no one ever entered a scene. That doesn't happen almost ever, but you add fire and you've now got firefighters in there, [05:41:30] they're not worried about shoe prints and fingerprints, they're worried about saving lives and putting out fire. Same thing with EMS. If they respond, they're worried about saving lives. And then law enforcement has a dual purpose, to save lives, preserve the scene, but also collect and preserve evidence if possible. So fire, A, makes things really complicated in terms of people.

Then you add potential damage from smoke or heat or fire that can certainly alter and change things. I've had cases where we think [05:42:00] we know who the decedents are, but the fire was so hot and so intense that we can't identify them. The bones and the teeth are so destroyed, we can't even figure out who people are. So fire can certainly be very damaging and it also creates safety hazards sometimes when houses are falling down and, yeah, they make our job harder in a nutshell.

Mr. Kinsler: At some point you enter the home, is that correct?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: Prior to that, have the firefighters kind of done their job?

Matt Austin: Yes. Yes. I don't know at what [05:42:30] time initial responders would've been there, but we're talking hours between initial things and my response.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Fair to say for safety's sake, the fire's got to be taken care of before you enter?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: Speaking of, we talked about the challenges that come with fire. Is it a challenge to locate DNA evidence in a fire?

Matt Austin: It certainly can be. DNA can come in different forms, whether it's blood, saliva, skin [05:43:00] cells from touch DNA. Heat will damage all of those things.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay.

Matt Austin: Or can.

Mr. Kinsler: Same question for water. Does water damage those things?

Matt Austin: Yes. Yes. We often joke that if we were going to commit crime, we would use bleach and a pressure washer. Water can damage all of that stuff.

Mr. Kinsler: I guess you've addressed it, but what does bleach do to DNA evidence?

Matt Austin: Bleach will also kill the cells that contain the DNA. We use bleach to clean our equipment after a scene. [05:43:30] We wipe down our shoes and our cameras and our tripods with bleach.

Mr. Kinsler: What about people like first responders who are on the scene before you touching surfaces where DNA might be?

Matt Austin: Again, in the perfect world, that wouldn't happen, but it's quite common that we're collecting standards from a lot of other people to eliminate. If we find a DNA profile, we don't know if it's victim, suspect or law enforcement. Sometimes we have to go collect 20 more samples to try to figure out who left something. [05:44:00] So yeah, certainly it can complicate the issue.

Mr. Kinsler: In your experience, do fire departments introduce bleach into the scene?

Matt Austin: Yes, and this case is where I learned that. The house had a faint odor of bleach that I noticed throughout processing, which to me initially indicated cleanup attempts. I've seen that before where suspects will allegedly use bleach to try to destroy DNA. But in talking with firefighters on scene and the fire investigator, I learned on [05:44:30] this case that the fire trucks that contain water, instead of using the hydrant to pump it, will put some bleach in the tank so that the water doesn't get gross and turn into scuzz and pond film and stuff. In effect, the fire department in this case used bleach and a pressure washer to help put out the fire.

Mr. Kinsler: Now I asked you those questions in the context of bleach, or excuse me, in the context of DNA. Are those same things make it difficult to collect fingerprints?

Matt Austin: [05:45:00] Yes, they can. Fingerprints might survive a little better, but enough water pressure could certainly alter ridge detail.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Does bleach in any way impair fingerprints?

Matt Austin: No.

Mr. Kinsler: Would heat in any way impair fingerprints?

Matt Austin: It could. I'm not a fingerprint expert, but a certain amount of heat at some point probably wouldn't alter the fingerprint, but it would destroy the item that the fingerprint was on, making it uncollectable.

Mr. Kinsler: When you're collecting a fingerprint, like a latent [05:45:30] print, what is that latent print made of?

Matt Austin: It is made of oils and skin cells, which are susceptible to heat.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. I think you mentioned there's never a perfect scene, but in the most perfect scene, is there necessarily DNA evidence left behind?

Matt Austin: No. It's a likelihood, but it's not a guarantee. There's a lot of individual factors [05:46:00] among the human population in terms of, if you're a sweater, if you're a shedder, people will call it, we could all touch the same thing and maybe in 50% of the time there would be touch DNA. It's not a guarantee. That's different from blood or saliva or semen. The DNA is probably going to be there, but specific to touch DNA, it's a gamble.

Mr. Kinsler: Do you wear gloves on a crime scene?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: Do you wear anything on your feet on [05:46:30] a crime scene?

Matt Austin: Not all the time, but if it's a case where there is a likelihood for suspect shoe prints, we will process those sooner than later and yes, cover our tread while doing that.

Mr. Kinsler: What is the purpose of covering your tread?

Matt Austin: To eliminate the need to do more elimination work later.

Mr. Kinsler: Is it so you don't contaminate the scene with your footprint?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: Same question for gloves. Why do you wear gloves on the scene?

Matt Austin: Both for our safety, coming into contact with unknown fluids, but also [05:47:00] to eliminate, "Oh, I found a fingerprint. Did I touch that an hour ago?" By wearing gloves, we just take that off the table.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Does your wearing gloves prevent you from leaving prints and DNA?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: As part of your work, do you photograph the scene?

Matt Austin: Yes. We take a lot of photographs.

Mr. Kinsler: [05:47:30] I'm sorry, you take photographs of the scene?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Judge, I'm going to begin showing them photographs beginning with 135A.

Mr. Shamansky: Your Honor, this is without objection and they're stipulated as to authentication and admissibility.

Judge: 135A through what, Mr. Kinsler?

Mr. Kinsler: [05:48:00] I don't think I'm... One moment, Your Honor.

Judge: Sure.

Mr. Kinsler: I believe I go... I'm going to take that, sorry. [05:48:30] Thank you. Judge, we are going to be going from 135A, A through Z, and then it'll be AA through ZZ. It'll be AAA through ZZZ, and then ultimately AAAA through LLLL.

Judge: Mr. Shamansky, did [05:49:00] you get all of those?

Mr. Shamansky: Yes, Your Honor, but could we just approach really quickly?

Judge: Yes. So Mr. Shamansky, we're-

Mr. Shamansky: We're [05:50:30] good right now, Your Honor. Thank you.

Judge: Okay.

Mr. Shamansky: And whichever crime scene photos and evidence collected, we're fine with publication to the jury.

Judge: All right. I just want to make sure, I have 35A through Z, AA, ZZ, AAA to ZZZ, [05:51:00] and then AAAA to LLLL. Is that right?

Mr. Kinsler: That is correct, Judge, but I may have misheard you. Did you say 35? It's 135.

Judge: 135. If I misspoke, I apologize. I have 135. All of those, Mr. Shamansky, you're stipulating to their authenticity?

Mr. Shamansky: Yes, sir.

Judge: Okay. All right, you may proceed.

Mr. Kinsler: Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. Austin, do you have a pointer up there?

Matt Austin: No, I do not.

Mr. Kinsler: May I approach, Your Honor?

Judge: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: [05:51:30] Mr. Austin, I think there's a screen to your right, if that's easier for you to see, but when you do point things out, if you don't mind pointing them out up to us on the screen when I get the photos up there. So you take photos of the scene, correct?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: [05:52:00] Do you recognize what's been marked as State's Exhibit 135A?

Matt Austin: Yes. This is the front of the house from the roadway.

Mr. Kinsler: What is the first thing you photograph when you get on scene?

Matt Austin: It varies, but typically we try to work from outside to inside while also observing, making observations, and if we see something transient, dealing with it right away. It wouldn't make any sense to go deep into the house to take your first picture [05:52:30] because you've walked past who knows what.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. What was the first thing you did at this house?

Matt Austin: I basically did a 360 around the house from about this distance, just to document its condition.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 135B, what are we looking at?

Matt Austin: This would be rotating counterclockwise, so to the right of the front of the house. This is the side of the house showing the backyard.

Mr. Kinsler: [05:53:00] 135C.

Matt Austin: We're still continuing counterclockwise. This is from the corner of the fence. I-70 is just kind of down this hill. Sorry about the reflection there. This is the back patio. There's a sliding door, or no, glass doors to the back of the house, and then here's some of the tarps that I mentioned remembering over the roof.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 135D, do you [05:53:30] recognize that?

Matt Austin: Yes, I do. This is the back of the house, more of a straight-on photograph showing those back doors, the patio, and then some tarps. This canopy had been set up, I was told by first responders or the coroner's office, and the two decedents are here on the back porch.

Mr. Kinsler: At this juncture, did it rain while you were there?

Matt Austin: On and off. I know it had rained while I was driving up.

Mr. Kinsler: Where were you driving from?

Matt Austin: From [05:54:00] Athens County.

Mr. Kinsler: Exhibit 135E, do you recognize that?

Matt Austin: I do, and this would be the left side of the house.

Mr. Kinsler: 135F, what are we looking at here?

Matt Austin: This photograph is from either the base or halfway up the stairs on the front of the house. We're looking at the open front door, water on the porch, and a fire hose extended through [05:54:30] the front door.

Mr. Kinsler: All right. Can we see damage to that door or adjacent to that door?

Matt Austin: Yes. You'll see on the right, the glass is intact and on the left here, it's damaged, and the glass is missing.

Mr. Kinsler: Judge, could you inquire the jury if the jurors on the right side can see if I'm standing up here?

Judge: Is anyone having any difficulty seeing what's on the screen? Please raise your right hand. No one has done so.

Mr. Kinsler: Thank you.

Judge: Thank you, though, for inquiring, Mr. Kinsler.

Mr. Kinsler: [05:55:00] State's Exhibit 135G.

Matt Austin: The home had a large front porch. This is from the left side of the porch looking across the extent of the porch.

Mr. Kinsler: Do you remember what was the condition of this window next to the rocking chair?

Matt Austin: Yes. This window had damage to it. The screen was removed or was out of place and on the floor of the porch.

Mr. Kinsler: That all took place before you arrived?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: [05:55:30] I'm sorry. State's Exhibit 135H.

Matt Austin: This photograph is now just into the front door. There was that photograph showing the open front door, this would be just a couple steps forward. We're looking into the living room from here.

Another thing that makes arson scenes hard, back to earlier questions, everything is black, which makes it hard to take good photographs because the black soot [05:56:00] absorbs all the light. It's hard to get photographs to look properly exposed in arson scene.

Mr. Kinsler: Was the power on in the home when you arrived?

Matt Austin: No, it was not.

Mr. Kinsler: So no. Was there any interior lighting or did you have to add interior-

Matt Austin: We added scene lighting.

Mr. Kinsler: State's 135I.

Matt Austin: This is a couple more steps into the front door of the home. To the left was a set of stairs that led upstairs. You can see the open door, [05:56:30] and this is that rear door on the back of the house that led to the patio, and you can see a little bit of the canopy that was set up.

Mr. Kinsler: State's 135J.

Matt Austin: This is now kind of finishing the loop, but now we're on the back of the house, just pointing in the opposite direction of the prior photo. So about to enter the back porch, you can see a silver body bag on the left and another silver body bag on the right between the banisters.

Mr. Kinsler: [05:57:00] 135K.

Matt Austin: This photograph is from the garage, which is at the front of the house. The left door was open when I arrived. There were two vehicles in the garage, and this is just showing a portion of the garage. There's also a deceased dog in the back corner of the garage, and you can see just an example of that, not damage, but complications of the scene. The garage floor is dark [05:57:30] with soot, and all of those are a myriad of footprints that are not mine, so unaccounted-for footprints.

Mr. Kinsler: 135L.

Matt Austin: This is a couple feet closer. We're getting a little bit of the rear of the second car, and then here is the deceased dog in the corner of the garage.

Mr. Kinsler: Are there actually two dogs in that photo?

Matt Austin: I remember there being two [05:58:00] dogs. I don't remember if they were next to each other or if the other one is elsewhere in the garage, but there were two deceased dogs.

Mr. Kinsler: I'm having a hard time making it out myself. Would you look to the one on your right there? Can you see?

Matt Austin: Yes. It might be helpful if we can dim lights. I don't know if that makes a difference, but...

Judge: Lights are here.

Mr. Kinsler: With the court's permission, could we dim maybe these right above us?

Judge: There's no dimming. They either come on or off.

Mr. Shamansky: Do you want me to stipulate that there's two dogs in that photo?

Mr. Vavra: That's fine.

Mr. Shamansky: [05:58:30] Judge, we'll stipulate there's two deceased dogs regrettably in that photo.

Judge: Okay.

Matt Austin: And now that I've refreshed my memory, you can see maybe there's kind of a dark and a light brown dog. This dog's back is touching the garage door, if that helps you kind of pick it up in the photograph.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 135M.

Matt Austin: This is a photograph from the garage door [05:59:00] showing the rear of one of the two vehicles in the garage.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 135N.

Matt Austin: This is items in storage that were in the rear corner of the garage.

Mr. Kinsler: When you say rear corner, imagine I'm standing... If you're standing facing that open garage door, which side are we talking about?

Matt Austin: Back wall to the right.

Mr. Kinsler: Do you remember, is there a doggy door [05:59:30] on this house?

Matt Austin: There is, and it was on this back wall of the garage. It was blocked. It was not in operation. Whether it's here or further to the left, there were items blocking the dog door that would've allowed the dogs to go into the backyard.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Can we see that photo from the back of the house?

Matt Austin: We should be able to. [06:00:00] It is off-screen, but it is to the left over by this area, like one of those flap-style doors.

Mr. Kinsler: Was there anything on the outside of the house?

Matt Austin: Not that I remember.

Mr. Kinsler: And I should have asked, there's not anything on the outside of the house that's preventing that door from working?

Matt Austin: What I remember is stuff inside the garage prevented the door from working.

Mr. Kinsler: Thank you. [06:00:30] State's 135O.

Matt Austin: This is from the back porch, just kind of showing the overall doorframe, suspected blood stains, fire hose, and the threshold of the door between the inside and the outside.

Mr. Kinsler: 135P.

Matt Austin: This is then kind of a mid-range photograph. We [06:01:00] tend to do a lot of almost duplicate photos, but we move closer in. That last picture, you couldn't see detail. If I just started with this picture, we might not know where we were. So this is then just a more detailed photograph of the threshold between the porch and the back of the house.

Mr. Kinsler: 135Q.

Matt Austin: This is then starting to enter the home. We're looking to the right here. This is the open door. Then we've got suspected blood stains [06:01:30] with what looks like drag marks through the blood stains. There's lots of sooty footprints and there's furniture in various states of what appears to be burn damage.

Mr. Kinsler: Is there a piece of furniture in the top left of this photo?

Matt Austin: Yes. There's a coffee table or end table-type piece of furniture. And then it's hard to see in this photograph, but we're starting to see the burnt remnants of a couch.

Mr. Kinsler: State's 135R.

Matt Austin: [06:02:00] This is then just panning to the left now and we're seeing the same things on the floor. I believe it was either an L-shaped couch or two different couches in the shape of an L, but this is the left couch, which is not burnt, but starts to have some smoke damage, an ottoman, and there's some items on the couch.

Mr. Kinsler: State's 135S.

Matt Austin: [06:02:30] This is kind of the last photograph in that sequence I talked about. This is a closeup of something with important detail. It's really hard to read, but that's LP for latent print. That's our shorthand for this is a photograph of a suspected latent print. This is a scaled sticker in case lab people need to do measurements, and then this is either a suspected fingerprint or suspected smudge on one of the white doors to the house.

Mr. Kinsler: [06:03:00] Did you attempt to take latent prints in more...

PART 11 OF 13 ENDS [06:03:04]

Speaker 16: Did you attempt to take latent prints in more than this location?

Matt Austin: Yes. I would have to refer to a report for specifics, but on a case like this, in many cases, we are processing places of entry or exit for both touch DNA or potential touch DNA and potential fingerprints. These are places that people likely come and go from.

Speaker 16: When you do this, what is that process? Explain it to the jury.

Matt Austin: So, first, it's just visual [06:03:30] examination. You've probably all seen in TV or the movies, the fingerprint powder. But if you can see the fingerprint with your naked eye, you don't need powder to develop it or find it. So, first, it's a visual search with a flashlight, and sometimes we can just find stuff right there. Then it's a combination of swabbing for touch DNA or dusting for latent prints, in combination or tandem. Smudges are typically better for touch DNA, because if I can see [06:04:00] what looks like a drag mark, there's probably not good ridge detail. So, this was probably swabbed, maybe photographed. Sometimes we do both.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit 135T.

Matt Austin: This is back in the living room. That's the coffee table we saw a little earlier. And you can see just the beginnings of a very burnt couch. You can see some of the skeleton framework here. And again, [06:04:30] suspected blood on the floor, fire hoses, and sooty footprints on the floor.

Speaker 16: State's 135U.

Matt Austin: Again, turning to the left, this is the unburnt couch. Here you can see one of the many different scene lights we set up. So, this was not present in the scene. We added it. And that's part of why we tell the story in photographs. The very first photos are unaltered at all, and then we start having to do things. [06:05:00] And so, the photographs tell that story.

Speaker 16: 135V.

Matt Austin: This is paying attention to the floor in between the burnt couch, which is on the right. The bulk of the suspected blood on the floor was in this area by the couch. And then the fire hose really points to that open back door. So, this is the area of interest in this photograph.

Speaker 16: [06:05:30] Let me ask you, why is that a point of interest to you?

Matt Austin: So, the only blood or suspected blood observed in the scene was really between this area on the right and this back door, which tells us or tells me that there's not bleeding events elsewhere in the house. Can't prove that, but it's a very good inclination that injuries didn't happen in a far back bedroom if the blood is in a totally different room and only limited to that area.

Speaker 16: [06:06:00] State's 135W.

Matt Austin: This is again looking towards the left of the living room. You can start to see more of the burnt couch compared to the unburnt couch.

Speaker 16: Again, where is the back door relative to this?

Matt Austin: So, the red hose goes right out the back door.

Speaker 16: State's 135X.

Matt Austin: Now, basically, [06:06:30] in the same location we're looking straight down, this is the edge of the burnt couch. There is the largest area of suspected blood on the floor, some of which is burnt and singed. I'm sure there's more photographs, but there's a large collection of burnt and unburnt US currency on the right of this photograph, along with some suspected clothing items.

Speaker 16: Same question as before. Where [06:07:00] would the back door be relative to this photo?

Matt Austin: The back door would be to the left and this blue hose snakes out to the right, out the front door.

Speaker 16: 135Y. What are we looking at?

Matt Austin: Essentially, the same area, but just shows in reference, here's that back door with the red hose. This is the suspected clothing and burnt currency, and now we're starting to see the back frame of the burnt couch.

Speaker 16: [06:07:30] State's 135Z. Do you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do. And this is from essentially the exact same spot. We're now just looking up, seeing the smoke damage to the wall, the ceiling, the full back door, and the top rail of the burnt couch.

Speaker 16: State's 135AA.

Matt Austin: Now we're standing more towards the front of the house. With my back to the front door, we can now see the entire [06:08:00] rear frame of the couch and the open back door.

Speaker 16: State's 135BB.

Matt Austin: We're still circling around the living room. This is the unburnt couch. And there were items, such as a, I think partially or maybe empty beer can, a phone, and a case, along with a vape, and maybe a blanket near this area of the unburnt couch. [06:08:30] This is that mid-range photograph, the same items I just described.

Speaker 16: Sorry, if I can stop you. Let me identify the exhibit. This is 135CC, please.

Matt Austin: Sorry. I was getting ahead of myself. This is that mid-range photograph, showing in better detail the things that I was just describing that you could see in the previous photo. Items to include, a pair of glasses on the little end table next to the couch.

Speaker 16: 135DD.

Matt Austin: [06:09:00] This photograph is from that same area. Now looking to the left of the home, the front door is on the left, the back door is on the right, and we're looking towards the master bedroom.

Speaker 16: 135EE.

Matt Austin: This is now rotating to the left. The front door is here. The stairs going upstairs are in the back of the photo and the hallway leading to the back bedroom [06:09:30] would be off camera just to the right.

Speaker 16: State's 135FF.

Matt Austin: This is just a mid-range photograph of a decorative table that was in the front foyer area. Anytime that there's names just to help identify or if there's mail, we'll often grab photographs of things like that.

Speaker 16: 135GG.

Matt Austin: So, the kitchen, it's a fairly open concept [06:10:00] house, but the kitchen is directly connected to the living room. This is the kitchen with a L-shaped kitchen island. The stove and fridge are off camera to the right. And just in the photograph is the garage door. The attached garage is connected to the kitchen.

Speaker 16: 135HH.

Matt Austin: This would be rotating to the left. Here's the open garage door. There's a little [06:10:30] breakfast nook, for the lack of a better term, off the kitchen. Dog watering and food area. And again, very sooty, dirty floor with all kinds of footprints all over them.

Speaker 16: The door to the garage, is there an opening on that?

Matt Austin: I don't remember, but looking at the photograph, I do see what appears to be a dog door or a pet door in the door.

Speaker 16: 135II.

Matt Austin: [06:11:00] This is another photograph of the kitchen, with more attention paid to the island, fridge, sink, stove area.

Speaker 16: We talked about this, I think early on, but what do you see on the floor there?

Matt Austin: Footprints.

Speaker 16: Were those all present when you arrive?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Speaker 16: Okay. 135JJ.

Matt Austin: This is that small breakfast nook directly attached to the kitchen.

Speaker 16: [06:11:30] 135KK.

Matt Austin: This is a photograph of the door that connects the kitchen to the garage, along with a connected pantry area.

Speaker 16: 135LL.

Matt Austin: This is another photograph of the kitchen. Standing at the door, so the garage is just to my left, looking back towards the kitchen. [06:12:00] Again, the dirty gray floor versus the footprints are allowing me to start to make some inferences on where firefighters or first responders went and didn't go, because at this point, no one has stepped in the soot in this area.

Speaker 16: 135MM.

Matt Austin: A very similar location, just panning to the right. We're now seeing the kitchen to the left and we're seeing the living room. And that back [06:12:30] rectangle would be leading back to the bedroom.

Speaker 16: 135NN.

Matt Austin: This is a mid-range photograph of that L-shaped kitchen island. Both inventorying and starting to do searching. There were a fair number of these zipper bank money bags throughout the house, which were ultimately photographed and then collected as potential pieces of evidence.

Speaker 16: Okay. Also, on there, there's a white box. Do you know what [06:13:00] that was?

Matt Austin: It was a home security system or surveillance camera type setup that was still in the packaging.

Speaker 16: To your knowledge, did the house have any surveillance video equipment?

Matt Austin: Not that I know of. No.

Speaker 16: Okay. State's Exhibit 135OO.

Matt Austin: So, now we're in the main kitchen area. Again, this is as I found it. There was a bottle, a glass bottle on the stove top, along with a pot, and then this [06:13:30] cupboard door was found open.

Speaker 16: And that's the case when you arrive on scene, correct?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Speaker 16: Do you have any idea when that door would've been opened?

Matt Austin: No.

Speaker 16: 135PP.

Matt Austin: Okay. In this photograph, we've left the kitchen, we've gone through the living room, and this is essentially from the living room looking into the bedroom. So, there was a small closet to the left and just off to the right is [06:14:00] a bathroom. In the very far foreground is the master bedroom.

Speaker 16: And I'm sorry, what is this area right here?

Matt Austin: This, I believe, was a closet, but there was fairly significant burn damage in this area.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit QQ.

Matt Austin: So, across from that small closet with a substantial amount of damage, directly across the hallway was this bathroom, which you can see here.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit RR.

Matt Austin: [06:14:30] So, in the bathroom, there's a fair amount of smoke damage. There were two shoes or slippers right in front of the toilet, a towel, and then a cell phone that was later collected right here on the edge of the counter.

Speaker 16: Is there another pair of shoes up on the sink?

Matt Austin: Yes. These are white New Balance tennis shoes.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit 135SS.

Matt Austin: [06:15:00] This is standing at the doorway to that back master bedroom. There are more of those blue money bags at the foot of the bed. I remember there being bundles of receipts. The mattress was in disarray. And again, there was an area of burning in this area, the corner of the bed.

Speaker 16: State's 135TT.

Matt Austin: This photograph shows a couple steps more into the bedroom. You can [06:15:30] see the partially burnt box spring, some melted bedding, and then disruption melted curtains inside the bedroom.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit 135UU.

Matt Austin: This photograph is very similar to the previous one. We're just a little bit closer, so you can see more detail. Pair of shoes, you can see the balled up receipts or folded up receipts, and then these blue bank bags [06:16:00] on the floor.

Speaker 16: 135VV.

Matt Austin: This is turning left from the bedroom door, a television on a dresser, and these dresser drawers were open when I got there. Again, I don't know when they were open, but I do know that for us, that's a clue that they were disturbed, especially in a house that's fairly clean and put together. So, swabs for potential touch DNA were collected from these knobs, with [06:16:30] the suggestion that someone may have touched them.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit 135WW.

Matt Austin: This is that same partially burnt corner of the bed. Just a little closer, you're able to see a little more detail.

Speaker 16: 135XX.

Matt Austin: So, the right of that bed was a walk-in closet. There was an overturned Budweiser box that contained [06:17:00] bundles of receipts that looked consistent with the ones that were burnt by the bed. And I believe there were more blue money bags in the closet as well.

Speaker 16: 135YY.

Matt Austin: This is a photograph a little further inside the closet. Again, inconsistent with the rest of the house were things like purses on the floor, things in disarray. The rest of the house was fairly organized. There's a football on the ground [06:17:30] that is likely from a closet shelf. There was a box with other sports items in it. So, it appeared that something happened in this closet or there was some disruption that moved items.

Speaker 16: And do you only know that that happened before you arrived?

Matt Austin: Yes. That very well could've been firefighters, first responders, but we don't know. But we just know that something happened, so it's a focal point for us.

Speaker 16: 135ZZ.

Matt Austin: This is a little [06:18:00] more detail of that turned over Budweiser box. All of those are bundles of receipts.

Speaker 16: 135AAA.

Matt Austin: There was a bathroom connected to that master bedroom. This is the window that was broken out that we saw from the front porch. There's glass on the floor and like a makeup counter next to the sink.

Speaker 16: 135BBB.

Matt Austin: [06:18:30] So, next to the partially burnt bed was the small dresser or bedside table. This drawer was found open. And there were, I believe, two firearms inside that drawer. This one pictured is still inside the holster and there's a silver revolver that's unholstered, sitting inside that drawer.

Speaker 16: 135CCC.

Matt Austin: We're now back to the living room, that staircase to the left [06:19:00] of the front door, leading up to the second floor.

Speaker 16: What do you notice about the steps?

Matt Austin: So, consistent with the kitchen area, there's a heavy deposit of soot and then there's the gray ashy disturbance of footprints.

Speaker 16: Excuse me, 135DDD.

Matt Austin: So, the second story is kind of a loft setup, where this was open access to the front door [06:19:30] on the right and then open access to the living room where the burnt couch was on the left. In the back of the photograph is a office area.

Speaker 16: 135EEE.

Matt Austin: So, this is from that second floor, but it allowed for a top-down photograph of the back door with the fire hose, the burnt corner of the couch where there was the highest concentration of suspected blood. And then you can see [06:20:00] what appears to be drag or skid marks of the blood, leading from the couch area to the door.

Speaker 16: There's a green item on the couch. Do you know what that is?

Matt Austin: Yes. This was some form of cleanup spray. I don't recall if it contained a bleach or not, but it was some kind of all-purpose cleaning type spray.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit 135FF.

Matt Austin: [06:20:30] So, opposite the home office was another room. This was like a guest bedroom and there was a deceased cat located up there.

Speaker 16: What is on the floor there in addition to soot?

Matt Austin: Drywall or ceiling material.

Speaker 16: Is this in the area where the damage to the roof was?

Matt Austin: Yes. Yeah. The tarps would be above this area.

Speaker 16: Okay. 135GGG.

Matt Austin: [06:21:00] This is that guest bed. Again, you can see plaster or ceiling on the bed.

Speaker 16: 135HHH. I'm sorry.

Matt Austin: This photograph, if you turn left from the previous photograph, this was a small window. This would be facing the front of the house. And here you can see footprints, disturbance, et cetera, in the sooty carpet, leading to the window.

Speaker 16: Is the [06:21:30] window open?

Matt Austin: It's either open or broken, but there was breeze coming through it.

Speaker 16: I don't know how to describe it, but is there some debris or something there by the window or hanging off the window?

Matt Austin: Yes. Looking at this photograph closer, these look like the curtains, the venetian type blinds. Not being a firefighter, I can't say exactly, but I didn't think this was forced entry or a burglary situation. [06:22:00] This appeared to be consistent with firefighters doing what they do.

Speaker 16: 135III.

Matt Austin: This is on the second floor still. This is that home office set up. There's a little desk area, a little sitting area, and then two office chairs.

Speaker 16: 135JJJ.

Matt Austin: This is from that second floor walkway, except now we're looking at the front door side. So, here's the stairs going [06:22:30] down. This blue hose would lead right out the front door. And again, this is scene lighting that we've added. This is well into scene processing, so some things have changed from my initial observations at this point.

Speaker 16: There's a rectangular object to the left of the blue hose. Do you remember what that was?

Matt Austin: I believe it was wall art or a painting that appeared to be on the wall and then got knocked over at some point.

Speaker 16: 135KKK.

Matt Austin: [06:23:00] This is the basement of the home, which there was nothing really remarkable in the basement.

Speaker 16: Is there water present?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Speaker 16: 135LLL.

Matt Austin: So, talking about the photographing in general, all of those initial photographs are all in that first walkthrough. Something may be of interest, mental note. And then once the whole house is documented, we do a second [06:23:30] array of photographs, this time adding placards. I've already talked about the burnt money or the suspected clothing, but we take these photographs to then better tell that story. So, the inventory and the report can just say item one as shorthand for what item one ultimately was. There's no order in what these numbers are. They're not necessarily chronological or of importance. We may find something after the fact, so the numbers bounce around and don't mean a whole lot.

Speaker 16: [06:24:00] 135MMM.

Matt Austin: So, this is that mid-range closeup of what is going to be collected as item one, item two, and item three. And again, this is right at the largest area of blood and the corner of the burnt couch.

Speaker 16: And what are those three items?

Matt Austin: I'm going to have to look at my report to refresh my memory. Another work product I make is an inventory.

Speaker 16: If I would, [06:24:30] if I could stop you right here. Does, Courtney, he refresh his recollection with the report?

Courtney: I certainly don't mind.

Speaker 17: Yeah, he may.

Speaker 16: Thank you, Your Honor.

Matt Austin: Thank you. So, [06:25:00] the currency and what was later found to be a burnt wallet was collected as item one. Item two was a different cluster of currency and feathers. And then blue fabric is item three, I believe.

Speaker 16: All right.

Matt Austin: Yes. The blue fabric and a key were item three.

Speaker 16: Exhibit [06:25:30] 135NNN.

Matt Austin: This is the end table next to the unburnt couch. Item four collected was a pink phone, slash, wallet case, which had ID in it to Angela.

Speaker 16: 135OOO.

Matt Austin: So, this is a closeup of three. Sometimes an item like a phone is readily identifiable as a phone. Item three is... it took some [06:26:00] digging through the ash to really figure out what it was, but it appears to be mostly burnt pair of either pants or shorts, and then there was a key that was found under some of the debris. So, those items together become three. But when I put placard three down, I didn't know the key was there.

Speaker 16: 135PPP.

Matt Austin: This is part of item one, a folded up collection of twenties.

Speaker 16: And those are fire [06:26:30] damaged?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Speaker 16: 135QQQ.

Matt Austin: What became part of item one also is that partially burnt wallet, which contained various things, to include Angela's name, but also Tom's name as well.

Speaker 16: Well, technically, does it contain the name Tommyboy Sausage?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit 135RRR.

Matt Austin: So, with almost everything we collect, we also take closeups removed from the original [06:27:00] scene. In the original scene, there could be distracting backgrounds. We like to lay things out and take inventory photos. So, this is then just a closeup of that pink phone, wallet case, item four.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit 135SSS.

Matt Austin: So, this is the back door area of the living room floor. Just off to the left is the back door opening. I have now added yard sticks or rulers to help make the [06:27:30] photograph be potentially useful to footwear. People that do footwear comparisons, they need a frame of reference to be able to do measurements.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit 135TTT.

Matt Austin: This is essentially the exact same area, just a different angle, a little more top-down. In this photograph, the back door is on the right.

Speaker 16: 135UUU?

Matt Austin: [06:28:00] If you go back to the bedroom, there were two firearms in that bedside table. This is one of the two of them, the revolver, found to be fully loaded. No evidence that it had been fired recently.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit 135V or VVV.

Matt Austin: I think this is up in the upstairs office. I would need some of the pre-photographs to help refresh my memory. [06:28:30] But just interesting note, a large sum of money, so it was documented through photography. And the envelope reads, "Put back 29,771.09 once the house sells."

Speaker 16: Was there actually cash in that envelope?

Matt Austin: I don't believe so.

Speaker 16: Okay. State's Exhibit 135WWW.

Matt Austin: These items collected as item 10 and 11 were in the garage near the deceased dogs, I think [06:29:00] in between the two vehicles. But again, knowing that we had fire, the gas jug could be of relevance. And then smelling the bleach in the house, I collected the bleach jug as well.

Speaker 16: 135XXX.

Matt Austin: So, you can see in the background, item seven. This is kind of partway through processing item seven, which is a collection of money bags that were found on the kitchen island. [06:29:30] I'm not even sure how many, but there were multiple bags on the island. And this is just one of the inventory photographs to document, was there anything in the bag or not. And this bag is empty.

Speaker 16: 135YYY.

Matt Austin: This bag would also have been found empty.

Speaker 16: And ZZZ

Matt Austin: A different bag had some change, and that was it.

Speaker 16: And then 135AAAA.

Matt Austin: So, this is all the bags that [06:30:00] were found in the kitchen collected together as item seven. And then as I mentioned, the inventory, this is all of the contents of those bags.

Speaker 16: Okay. So, just change and no bills?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Speaker 16: What is that piece of paper up to the top right?

Matt Austin: It's a money band that I think says 1,000. It could be 100, but I think it's 1,000.

Speaker 16: 135BBBB.

Matt Austin: [06:30:30] These are more money bags. At this point, I'm guessing that these are the ones from the bedroom, but I'll need some more photographs to fully know.

Speaker 16: Okay. But you collected these blue bags from the kitchen and the bedroom?

Matt Austin: Yes. Both of those two areas had a collection of bags in different array. And they were all collected with the idea that empty money bags, there could be a theft component, there could be suspect interaction with these items, so we should collect them in case that's the issue.

Speaker 16: 135CCCC.

Matt Austin: [06:31:00] So, this is the area near... You recognize the end table, this is the collection of the largest blood, and off-screen to the right here is where the burnt couch was. So, in collaboration with the fire investigator who was on scene, part of what he needed to do and me is to move things. So, once things were thoroughly documented, we had to start excavating things and moving things, which allows for [06:31:30] sifting through the ash and debris. So, this is the same area as the money and the burnt pants or shorts, just with the couch removed.

Speaker 16: 135DDDD.

Matt Austin: So, once we started to really dig through the ash and move things, we discovered two items in that same general area, as the feathers and the burnt money, and item 12. And then [06:32:00] another item were small pieces of metal, suspected bullet fragments that were disfigured and right in a fairly large area of coagulated blood.

Speaker 16: Moving back one, could you point to 12, the placard?

Matt Austin: So, 12 is the higher one, closer to the table. And then 13 is the lower cardboard placard. [06:32:30] And both of these were suspected bullets or bullet fragments.

Speaker 16: Is this near where items one, two, three were located, the cash and feathers?

Matt Austin: Yes. If you were to overlay those photos, they're dang near on top of each other, but you can see this burnt rectangle, that's where the burnt couch was. This is after a lot of movement of those items. And starting to slowly brush away soot and burnt feathers and the burnt clothing.

Speaker 16: [06:33:00] And I'm sorry, we asked you about DDDD. 135EEEE.

Matt Austin: This was the other suspected bullet or bullet fragment located in that same area.

Speaker 16: Could you point the fragment for us?

Matt Austin: On the left, you can see the typical rounded shape, but then the back half or this on the right is pretty disfigured and disformed.

Speaker 16: Have you ever experienced that in dealing with crime scene, a bullet being melted by fire?

Matt Austin: No, [06:33:30] I have not.

Speaker 16: 135FFFF.

Matt Austin: This is that altered closeup. So, I've collected 12, I've moved 12, and now we're taking better photographs. And you can start to see more detail of the suspected bullet.

Speaker 16: 135GGGG.

Matt Austin: This is the same. This is a closeup of the suspected bullet collected as item 13.

Speaker 16: 135HHHH.

Matt Austin: This is a photograph of the [06:34:00] back door on that back porch, this time with the door closed. I found it with the door open, but I wanted to capture what the door looked like had it been closed. And there was blood or suspected blood stain on the exterior of the door. And you can also see some of the black fingerprint powder that we talked about on the sides of the white doorframe.

Speaker 16: When you say fingerprint powder, does that mean you've applied it?

Matt Austin: Yes. Yes. This photograph would've been after that fingerprint work.

Speaker 16: [06:34:30] State's Exhibit 135IIII.

Matt Austin: This is that same back door, this time from inside the house. So, we'd be looking outside the door. And there was a mysterious pattern. The door is really sooty. Normally, this would be clear glass. You can't see through it, but near the door handle is some sort of a stain that appeared to be some sort of a liquid.

Speaker 16: [06:35:00] 135JJJJ.

Matt Austin: So, there was those two vehicles in the garage. This is the red pickup truck. As part of processing, we went through the truck, took photographs. This is from the passenger side, looking across the front of the truck.

Speaker 16: The glove box is open in this photo?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Speaker 16: Do you have any idea when that would've been opened?

Matt Austin: I do not.

Speaker 16: Any idea who might've opened it?

Matt Austin: No, but swabs were taken for touch DNA from that. Again, on the theory that [06:35:30] firefighters probably didn't do it, so let's see who touched it.

Speaker 16: Is there also a phone in this car?

Matt Austin: There was a phone in this car as well.

Speaker 16: Is that in the center console?

Matt Austin: Yes, it was.

Speaker 16: State's Exhibit 135KKKK.

Matt Austin: As a part of most of our cases, we are also looking for signs of forced entry. So, this is a photograph of the doorframe component of the back door. [06:36:00] There's no primarks, there's no tool marks, there's no visible damage.

PART 12 OF 13 ENDS [06:36:04]

Matt Austin: There's no pry marks, there's no tool marks, there's no visible damage to that latch plate.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 135, quadruple L.

Matt Austin: Same idea. This is now the front door. If you recall the broken out window to the side of the door, both of these locks were found or both of these latch plates were found undamaged.

Mr. Kinsler: [06:36:30] You also collected some physical exhibits, correct?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Your Honor, may I approach-

Judge Chris Ber...: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: ... the witness? What I was intending to do is maybe hand these to him. Is it all right if I stand next to him?

Samuel H. Shama...: No objection, Your Honor. No objection, sir.

Judge Chris Ber...: [06:37:00] Oh, I thought you said objection.

Samuel H. Shama...: No, no objection.

Mr. Kinsler: Thank you. I want to show you what's been marked as State's Exhibit 126. Judge, [inaudible 06:37:14].

Judge Chris Ber...: How many exhibits do you have on the table?

Mr. Kinsler: It's a number of them but some of them are very small.

Samuel H. Shama...: Your Honor, we have no objection if he desires to question from up there.

Judge Chris Ber...: [inaudible 06:37:29]. So [06:37:30] you can stay [inaudible 06:37:33]. One second. Mr. Shamansky, if it becomes a vision issue-

Samuel H. Shama...: No, I'm good, Judge.

Judge Chris Ber...: Okay.

Samuel H. Shama...: Thank you, sir.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 26, do you recognize that?

Matt Austin: Yes, I do.

Mr. Kinsler: And what is that?

Matt Austin: So this is item one. I recognize this is a sticker that I would've created on scene and packaged with, and then this is a tape seal with the date and my initials on it. Item one [06:38:00] was burnt paper bills and the wallet. This was found near that burnt couch.

Mr. Kinsler: And that was labeled in your photos as item one?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. I don't think I need you to open that one.

Matt Austin: Okay.

Mr. Kinsler: [inaudible 06:38:15].

Speaker 18: Okay.

Mr. Kinsler: I'm going to show you what's been marked as State's Exhibit 27. Do you recognize that?

Matt Austin: I do.

Mr. Kinsler: And what is that?

Matt Austin: This is item two. [06:38:30] Again, I recognize my sticker and my date and signature on the back. Item two was the feathers from the couch near the burnt corner.

Mr. Kinsler: Again, we saw a photo of those feathers with placard number two.

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 28. Oh, I'm sorry. State's Exhibit 28.

Matt Austin: [06:39:00] So this is item three in my inventory, and this is the suspected clothing and the key that was found near the burnt couch.

Mr. Kinsler: You described it as blue color, is that correct?

Matt Austin: Mm-hmm. Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: How large article of clothing [inaudible 06:39:14]?

Matt Austin: The pieces that remained were, if you added it all up, probably smaller than this envelope or about the size of this.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay.

Matt Austin: Again, we couldn't tell if it was pants or shorts, but it appeared to be pants or shorts.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. I'm going to show you State's Exhibit 29. Do [06:39:30] you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do. This is my envelope with my initials and date. Item four, this is that pink cell phone with case. Things have obviously happened to this after I collected it, but I do recognize it.

Mr. Kinsler: And I'm sorry, what was the item?

Matt Austin: Item four.

Mr. Kinsler: That was Angela's phone?

Matt Austin: Yes. Pink cell phone case with phone and IDs belonging to [06:40:00] Angela Strussion.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 30. Do you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do. This is what I collected as item five. Again, my seal on the back. And this is multiple black and blue bank money bags with soot and receipts. And these were located on the master bedroom floor by the burnt box spring.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. [06:40:30] Item number five, blue bag, blue bank bags. I'm sorry, what else did you say was in there?

Matt Austin: Multiple black and blue money bags with soot and receipts.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. And it's your item number five?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 31. Do you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do. This [06:41:00] contains item six, which is that Budweiser case inside the master closet that was tipped over and had receipts in it. Again, my sticker and I recognize my seal.

Mr. Kinsler: I believe that is State's Exhibit 32. Oh, I'm sorry. No, it's not. [06:41:30] No, it is. State's Exhibit 32, is that correct?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: Do you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do. This is item seven. Again, my sticker, I recognize my handwriting back there. And this is bank money bags on the kitchen island. Again, item seven.

Mr. Kinsler: [06:42:00] State's Exhibit 36. Do you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do. I don't think we talked about it as we went through the photographs, but I had been informed that the stove top was found on by firefighters and there was that pot and a glass bottle that both appeared to experience a color change, [06:42:30] like they were hot. So on the speculation that the oven had been left on, these are the four knobs that would've turned on the oven burners, individually packaged A through D. These are the four knobs from the stove.

Mr. Kinsler: Did you have an item number for that?

Matt Austin: Item 15.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 38. [06:43:00] Do you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do. This is my item 17. Again, my seal, and this is the phone located on the vanity in the bathroom on the first floor.

Mr. Kinsler: We saw a photo associated with that.

Matt Austin: We did. We didn't see a placard on it, but we saw the phone. It was collected as item 17.

Mr. Kinsler: [06:43:30] Show you what's been marked as State's Exhibit 43. Do you recognize that?

Matt Austin: I do. This is item number 22, and this is a swab for potential touch DNA from that pickup truck glove box latch area. [06:44:00] So in here is essentially a long Q-tip that we moisten with a special chemical and then scrub where we think someone might have touched, to try to extract those oils and skin cells.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 49. Do you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do. This is item 28. Again, it's a swab for potential touch DNA, and this is from the back swinging [06:44:30] glass door handle. So again, thinking about likely touch places, this is from the inside of the back door.

Mr. Kinsler: Just one moment, Your Honor.

Judge Chris Ber...: Sure.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 50. [06:45:00] Do you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do. This is item 29. Again, it's a swab for potential touch DNA. And this is from that opened cabinet door that was to the left of the stove.

Mr. Kinsler: And that was of interest to you why?

Matt Austin: Nothing else in the kitchen appeared disturbed. There weren't a bunch of other cabinet doors open. It would be unlikely, in my opinion, that firefighters would be checking [06:45:30] cupboards for fire. So it stood out as different.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 51, do you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do.

Mr. Kinsler: And what is that?

Matt Austin: This is item 30. This is another touch swab, and this is from a different cabinet door. It was closed, but it's the cabinet to the right of the stove that also contained pots and pans. So could have been opened and then closed, but it was in the area of [06:46:00] potential interest with the stove that had been reportedly found on.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 52. Do you recognize that?

Matt Austin: I do. This is item 31, which is a swab collected from another cabinet door to the left of the stove.

Mr. Kinsler: Is there any reason that was of interest to you?

Matt Austin: Same answer as all the other cabinet doors [06:46:30] and the stove knobs. The arson investigator stated or had informed me that this was a potential fire origin or attempt, so this was an area that we spent some time working on.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 55. Do you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do. This is another swab for potential touch [06:47:00] DNA. This is from the tall dresser in the master bedroom that had the TV on it. I think four or five different drawers were found open. So all of those knobs were swabbed as one to try to get the most potential touch DNA off the dresser.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 56. Do you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: I do. This was collected by me as item 35. Same concept. This is from the open bedside table [06:47:30] drawer that had the two handguns in it. So a swab for touch DNA.

Mr. Kinsler: State's Exhibit 57. Did you recognize that item?

Matt Austin: Yes, I do.

Mr. Kinsler: And what is that item?

Matt Austin: So State's Exhibit [06:48:00] 57 is touch DNA swabs from the dresser with the TV. I misspoke. And item 34, there was a second dresser in the bedroom and this was swabs from that dresser. So just to clarify, 34 is the tall dresser and 36 is the dresser with the TV. So I misspoke.

Mr. Kinsler: Thank you. State's Exhibit 60, do you recognize that?

Matt Austin: Yes, I do.

Mr. Kinsler: And [06:48:30] what is that item?

Matt Austin: This is item 39, and this is three latent prints collected from the front and back doors. So in here is like a clear transparency sheet that you may remember from grade school. We use clear tape to collect the fingerprint and then we just tape that onto the clear acetate so there's no contamination issues. They can get packaged together. So these are collected fingerprints from the scene.

Mr. Kinsler: But there's actually a number of different prints from a number of different locations?

Matt Austin: Three, yes.

Mr. Kinsler: [06:49:00] State's Exhibit 163. Do you recognize that?

Matt Austin: I do. This is collected as item 12, and this was that suspected lead projectile found on the living room floor where the burnt clothing and the money were, near the burnt couch.

Mr. Kinsler: Which we saw in the photo?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: Placard wall.

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: Likewise, State's Exhibit 164, do you recognize [06:49:30] that item?

Matt Austin: Yes. 164 is item 13, which was the second suspected projectile located in that same area.

Mr. Kinsler: And again, something we saw in the video?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: Excuse me, we saw a photograph?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: [06:50:00] In addition to the items that we presented here today, I guess the first question I'll ask you is those items, those physical items that are now positioned behind you, are those all items you collected on the 21st of September 2021?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Those all bear the markings or signature that you would've done on that date?

Matt Austin: They do, in addition to some other things. So if I can [06:50:30] just point out item 39, just for example, like I said earlier, I recognize my tape seal with my initials and my date and my sticker, but when things get sent to our lab for additional testing, they often get a different sticker. So I didn't make this sticker and then I recognize probably one of our scientists' signatures. It's common practice to not damage the initial seal and make a new seal. So [06:51:00] some of these items appear to have been opened six, seven, eight times. There should be corresponding different seals to kind of help tell the story. So it's largely familiar, but then there's stuff that I did not create on the packaging.

Mr. Kinsler: And is that common?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. What is the point of all that, the point of people making additional openings or [inaudible 06:51:27]?

Matt Austin: To help preserve and tell the story. If my original seal [06:51:30] were to get cut, it's harder for me to verify my handwriting or the date if the bag keeps getting opened in the same spot.

Mr. Kinsler: I've asked you about those physical items. Did you collect some additional physical items?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. And I want to just... We're not going to admit those, but I want to ask you about some of those. Did you collect any computers?

Matt Austin: Yes. I believe it's two. I'd have to refresh, but there were some computers upstairs in that office on the second floor.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. [06:52:00] If I told you those were items eight and nine and they were in that upstairs office, would that sound correct?

Matt Austin: It sounds correct. It would also be documented in my report.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Did you collect that gas can and the red gas can from the garage?

Matt Austin: Yes. And those were items eight and nine, I believe.

Mr. Kinsler: I believe the gas can might be item 11. [inaudible 06:52:26] verify that.

Matt Austin: [06:52:30] Yes. The Clorox bleach was item 10 and the gas can was item 11.

Mr. Kinsler: The phones that we saw photographs of, are those all things you collected?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. And if I'm not mistaken, there was a wooden box in the closet. Did you collect that as well?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: And [06:53:00] there was like a paper bag from the buckle store?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. We talked about you doing DNA. Do you have any idea how many different places you did touch DNA?

Matt Austin: Not off the top of my head. I think that's most of them, but I would have to kind of dig through the report to fully refresh my memory.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Did you do the truck door?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: Both passenger and driver's side?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: [06:53:30] Okay. Would you have done the exterior of the back door or exterior handle of the back door?

Matt Austin: Yes, that would be common practice to do inside and outside of nearly all the doors.

Mr. Kinsler: I'm going to ask you kind of as a group, did you collect touch DNA from the interior handle of back door, the interior door jamb, the metal garage handle to the left? [06:54:00] Are all those areas you would've collected touch DNA from?

Matt Austin: That sounds consistent with how we would process.

Mr. Kinsler: Is it common that you're going to... Things like door handles are something you're going to do touch DNA on?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Likewise, I'd like to ask you about swabbing for blood. There was blood on the scene, correct?

Matt Austin: Correct.

Mr. Kinsler: And I think we talked about it in the photos, but there was some blood on the black sliding door, or excuse me, the back door, [06:54:30] as well as the exterior back door swab and a swab from the exterior of the back glass door and from a swinging glass door. Does that all sound accurate?

Matt Austin: Yes.

Mr. Kinsler: The prints, to your knowledge, was there any additional print work that you did other than those?

Matt Austin: Not that we haven't already talked about, no.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. [06:55:00] We talked about the bags. Was there cash in any of those bank bags?

Matt Austin: I don't believe so.

Mr. Kinsler: And I should specify, I think we saw a photo of change, coins. I mean paper cash. Did you see any paper cash in any of those bags?

Matt Austin: I don't believe so. I do [06:55:30] remember that some of the bags that were zipped all the way closed, I didn't even want to risk potentially smudging or contaminating, and those got collected and sent straight to the lab. So some of the bags, I didn't do an inventory of just to fully preserve.

Mr. Kinsler: Outside of what we just testified here today, did you locate any other money in the house, like cash, currency?

Matt Austin: No.

Mr. Kinsler: What do you do with the touch DNA, bloodstain swabs, [06:56:00] print work that you do? Where does that go? Who do you give that to?

Matt Austin: So as a part, kind of coming full circle to the fact that we're an assist agency, all of these items plus the other ones collected before I left the scene all get turned over to the sheriff's office along with the printed inventory, a spreadsheet of everything, and it's essentially their case from that point forward. The report takes a little bit longer to write and then deliver along with the scans or any other [06:56:30] special work we do, a diagram they might get a couple days later, but essentially, it's theirs to run with after that. It's common for us to provide some insight or some recommendations. I like this item over this item, but we're, again, just the visitor who's helping out.

Mr. Kinsler: So ultimately, the decision as to what is tested is made by who?

Matt Austin: The agency that we're working for.

Mr. Kinsler: And does BCI offer these lab services that we're talking about?

Matt Austin: They do.

Mr. Kinsler: Does BCI test [06:57:00] everything?

Matt Austin: No, they don't.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Are there restrictions on that?

Matt Austin: Yes. While it's still BCI, the lab is an entirely different entity than investigations. It's not uncommon for us to collect 30 or 50 things, but the lab with their rules and their workflow might only test five or eight in a case.

Mr. Kinsler: In your experience, does the lab give input on those decisions, like which items to test?

Matt Austin: In some cases, if asked, yes.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Do [06:57:30] you know who ultimately makes that call?

Matt Austin: Ultimately, it's the agency.

Mr. Kinsler: Okay. Nothing further, Your Honor. Thank you.

Judge Chris Ber...: All right.

Mr. Kinsler: [inaudible 06:57:41].

Judge Chris Ber...: Mr. Shamansky, do you have any cross examination?

Samuel H. Shama...: I do not. Thank you, Your Honor.

Judge Chris Ber...: May this witness be excused?

Mr. Kinsler: Yes, Your Honor.

Judge Chris Ber...: Thank you, sir.

Matt Austin: Thank you. Would you like me to return these or do anything with the physical?

Judge Chris Ber...: [06:58:00] Leave those right there.

Matt Austin: Okay.

Judge Chris Ber...: [inaudible 06:58:01].

Matt Austin: All right. Thank you, Your Honor.

Joseph Vavra: Approach, Your Honor?

Judge Chris Ber...: Yes. All right. Ladies [06:59:00] and gentlemen of the jury, the State advised me they've reached a good point to stop for the day. So once again, you're getting out a little early. I don't really want to sound like a broken record, but they're very important, the admonitions [06:59:30] I give you, so I'm going to repeat them one more time. When you leave here today, make sure you have no discussions with anyone about this case. You don't let anybody have a discussion in front of you about this case. Do not read any media reports, TV, print, online about this case. Don't undertake any private investigation to learn more about this case, and do not post anything online [07:00:00] about this case. With that said, I thank you all for being very attentive here today, and I'll see you all 8:45 AM tomorrow morning. Thank you.

[07:00:30] Before we recess for the day, we are outside the presence of the jury, Mr. Vavra or Mr. Kinsler, does the State have any issues it needs to address?

Joseph Vavra: Judge, we will... One of the issues that came up a little earlier, we're going to take a look at. [07:01:00] We can recess. We can leave that after the recess and we can address the court before leaving today or tomorrow morning if need be on that issue.

Samuel H. Shama...: If there's a need, Your Honor.

Judge Chris Ber...: Okay. But the parties do plan to have a discussion that may address a potential issue?

Samuel H. Shama...: Yes, sir.

Judge Chris Ber...: Okay. Mr. Shamansky, do you have any issues that need addressed?

Samuel H. Shama...: Do not, Your Honor. Thank you, sir.

Judge Chris Ber...: Okay. Then this court will be in recess. I would like the parties here tomorrow by 8:30 AM. Is the State collecting the [07:01:30] exhibits right here?

Mr. Kinsler: Yes, Your Honor.

Judge Chris Ber...: Okay. Then the court will be in recess.

Joseph Vavra: Thank you. Yes...

‍