MA v. Lindsay Clancy Day 15

And I think that at some point after we talk a little bit, we're going to have to take a short break just to make sure that logistically everything's all set up with the doctor and the system here. And I appreciate everybody's help technically in setting that up. And I know that the defendant has provided, I don't know, maybe five or six exhibits that counsel wanted to introduce through Dr. Laposata. And so I guess Commonwealth, have you had an opportunity to take a look at these?

Jennifer Sprague (38:48):

Yes. And we are objecting to these items. Yes.

William Sullivan (38:53):

All right. And so why don't we discuss those here in open court and go through it. And so I've had the opportunity to saw these this morning as well. And so Commonwealth, why don't I hear the objections and then I'll hear from the defendant.

Jennifer Sprague (39:17):

The main objection is that the drawing is inaccurate. The window well is in the wrong place. And where they have her falling and landing in slide four would be where the window well is actually placed in the photograph. I can pass up the photograph to the court. This is in evidence, I believe, maybe a couple times. But talks are discretionary, but what they should not do is mislead a jury and present information that's not accurate. And so the drawing itself is inaccurate. And so we're objecting to these slides.

William Sullivan (40:04):

Is that the Commonwealth's objection is that the window well is in the wrong place on the drawing?

Speaker 1 (40:13):

Putting aside the late disclosure and the fact that I don't know if anyone who created this is going to come in and testify that they created it and whether it's to scale or not. But the main objection is that it's inaccurate.

William Sullivan (40:29):

All right. Mr. Reddington.

Kevin Reddington (40:30):

Thank you. Your Honor, obviously the window well, you've got... This thing is ridiculous. The diagram we're talking about, the window well. You already have a copy of it, right?

William Sullivan (40:53):

I do, yeah.

Kevin Reddington (40:55):

The window well is depicted on the diagram, I suggest, accurately. And in fact, measurements were taken by the gentleman who did the computer animation in conjunction with information by way of medical provided by Dr. Laposata. And it shows clearly that, as Your Honor can see, that we're talking about the X-rays that are included. There are exhibits that she attaches that shows the way that she falls, how she hits her head. The Commonwealth has been suggesting that, I guess, that they're confused as to how she would have ended up the way she did. This shows the way that she landed on her head, gets to Jefferson fracture, falls back, legs are facing out from the house. She's laying in the snow. They're all depicted there. If there's an issue with the window well that's off according to the government, they could raise that on cross. They could say, "Well, the window well was really six inches to the left instead of to the right that never struck her anyway. It's totally irrelevant."

(42:05)
I think that they are useful for a jury to be able to review. I did have copies made for the jurors and the court as well as the DAs. And Dr. Laposata has it. And then I could go through, but you can see that we've taken the diagram, the window where the body lands, and then to the right of it would be the actual X-ray. Dr. Laposata can compare the injuries, talk about the Jefferson fracture. There's a photograph that shows the blood in the snow, shows the area in the photograph actually shows the window well. And I suggest the window well on page six is exactly the way we have it depicted. So I don't know what the objection is. I would ask that the court would allow this to be in.

William Sullivan (42:56):

All right. I guess it appears to be slides four, five, and six certainly go towards the doctor's opinion as we said, the mechanism of the injury that shows the head striking of the ground. And then on the other part of the slide has the X-rays and there's also a slide regarding the Jefferson fracture diagram. And then five is a diagram showing how the thoracic spine injury could have occurred. And there's a diagram regarding the thoracic spine, specifically T6. And then slide six shows the... And I think there has been testimony as that is where the defendant was found. And also then there's a thoracic spine. I think it's either an X-ray or some type of scan, as well as some of the additional medical devices that were found in that area. I'm not quite sure about one, two, and three.

Kevin Reddington (44:31):

That's fine. I can remove one. I can remove two. And we'll just focus if you want on three through six.

William Sullivan (44:39):

I think that goes more towards the doctor's background and kind of what had been offered in regards to her opinion.

Jennifer Sprague (44:48):

Your Honor, I think you said you were unsure of one, two and three.

William Sullivan (44:51):

Yeah.

Jennifer Sprague (44:52):

And defense said he could go with three, four, five and six. So three was an issue, was it not?

Kevin Reddington (44:58):

What's wrong with three?

William Sullivan (45:00):

Well, again, I think four kind of would cover what's... Let's deal with that. All right. So I would allow in slide four, slide five, and slide six.

Kevin Reddington (45:20):

Okay. Thank you.

William Sullivan (45:20):

Okay.

Jennifer Sprague (45:20):

[inaudible 00:45:21] objection.

William Sullivan (45:23):

Yeah, objection noted. And then what we'll do is take a short break at this point set up the Zoom call. Also, I know we're going to have to probably make certain changes to the jury book that was going to be presented. So the only slides that will be in that book will be, like I said, just so we know-

Kevin Reddington (45:48):

Four, five and six.

William Sullivan (45:49):

Yeah, just so we know which ones you're talking about.

Kevin Reddington (45:50):

Okay.

Jennifer Sprague (45:51):

There's a book.

Kevin Reddington (45:52):

Well, no, it's not a book. It's just [inaudible 00:45:56] stapled together all of the exhibits.

William Sullivan (46:00):

All right. So just so we know what we're talking about, right? Four?

Jennifer Sprague (46:01):

Yes.

William Sullivan (46:02):

And five is the thoracic spine.

Kevin Reddington (46:07):

Yes. And like I say, I've got enough for the jurors plus you and the DAs.

William Sullivan (46:13):

Okay. And then six. I just kind of want to make sure that we're all talking the same.

Kevin Reddington (46:16):

Four, five and six.

William Sullivan (46:16):

Okay.

Kevin Reddington (46:16):

Perfect. Thank you.

William Sullivan (46:18):

All right. So why don't we do that? We'll take a short break so that those changes can be made and we can set up for the Zoom and then we'll come back out and we'll proceed with Dr. Laposata.

Kevin Reddington (46:31):

Thank you.

William Sullivan (46:31):

Okay. All right. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (46:32):

Court, all rise.

Speaker 3 (46:32):

[inaudible 00:46:36].

Speaker 4 (46:32):

[inaudible 00:46:36].

Speaker 5 (46:36):

The DUI just [inaudible 00:46:44].

Speaker 1 (46:47):

This court is back in session. You may be seated.

Speaker 6 (46:48):

Your Honor, for the [inaudible 00:46:51] right of the matter, Commonwealth [inaudible 00:46:53] believes that [inaudible 00:46:54].

William Sullivan (46:58):

All right. Are we ready for the jury?

Kevin Reddington (46:59):

Yes. We have some kind of background noise. I don't know if there's anything that can be done with it.

William Sullivan (47:06):

I know. I'm not sure. I'm probably the wrong person to ask in regards to that.

Kevin Reddington (47:11):

I'm right behind you. [inaudible 00:47:16].

Speaker 7 (47:27):

Let's see what [inaudible 00:47:28].

Kevin Reddington (47:27):

[inaudible 00:47:28].

Speaker 8 (47:27):

[inaudible 00:47:28] your top guy.

Speaker 9 (47:27):

Hello?

Kevin Reddington (47:27):

Wait a minute. Hold on.

Speaker 9 (47:28):

Have a nice day. Is anyone there?

Kevin Reddington (47:35):

Hold on, Doc.

William Sullivan (47:39):

I'm not sure this is going to work at this point. So why don't we see if we could get somebody to address this?

Kevin Reddington (47:49):

We can see you [inaudible 00:47:55].

William Sullivan (47:55):

We'll get it done. But-

Speaker 10 (47:55):

[inaudible 00:47:55].

William Sullivan (47:55):

.... we call someone at FTI or somebody.

Speaker 9 (47:55):

Into the site.

William Sullivan (47:58):

So why don't we take a further break? We'll figure this out.

Kevin Reddington (48:00):

I'll ask the crowd.

William Sullivan (48:01):

Yeah. All right. All right. Thanks.

Speaker 1 (48:12):

Court, all rise.

Speaker 9 (48:12):

[inaudible 00:48:13].

Speaker 11 (48:12):

[inaudible 00:48:13].

Speaker 12 (48:12):

[inaudible 00:48:13] to do...

Speaker 1 (48:12):

This court is back in session. Please be seated.

Speaker 6 (48:14):

Your Honor, the purpose of the [inaudible 00:48:16] Commonwealth [inaudible 00:48:18] call [inaudible 00:48:20].

William Sullivan (48:21):

All right. So I think probably it makes more sense to address whatever the technological issues were on the Zoom. Maybe that could be done during the lunch period, and then we can go forward. I know the defense next witness would be, is it Dr. Condie?

Kevin Reddington (48:41):

Yes. Donald Condie, G-O-N-D-I-E.

William Sullivan (48:44):

And I know that we had talked about a possible voir dire in regards to Dr. Condie. Do the parties see the need for the doctor testify that or maybe we could just hear the offer of proof or what the expectations of the testimony is and then we can-

Kevin Reddington (49:10):

I don't know what the objection is.

William Sullivan (49:11):

Yeah.

Shanan Buckingham (49:12):

So the objection is that we were provided with an affidavit. The original affidavit that was provided, counsel agreed that it referred to standard of care, which is not the issue in this case. Really reflects his opinions in a civil case. So we were provided another affidavit which appears to factually have the same numbered paragraphs and just deletes the ultimate opinion section and adds that Dr. Tufts and Nurse Gelada were aware that Lindsay was experiencing symptoms of suicidal ideation and a critically deteriorating condition while under their care and failed to take reasonable steps. So it's unclear from his affidavit what exactly he's going to testify to. Is he going to just reiterate everything that has been presented in the records, everything that we would expect defense counsel to offer through expert testimony in the criminal responsibility error about the medication regimens that the defendant was on over the course of several months? Because if that's the case, then I would suggest that this is cumulative testimony and that it doesn't need to be presented in this manner to the jury.

William Sullivan (50:17):

But let me ask this similar to the question I asked earlier to a similar objection regarding cumulative. The defense hasn't put it, this is their first witness in regards to that. Wouldn't the cumulative analysis be done if there's a follow-up expert that would be addressing these areas?

Shanan Buckingham (50:45):

Potentially but that then becomes the defense's strategic choice about whether if they're going to call Dr. Condie for this piece of it and the other experts for another piece of it. It's unclear, especially where the reports we've been provided by Dr. Spinelli and Dr. Zeisel talk about polypharmacology as part of the basis of their opinions in this case. So it's difficult to assess that and we're obviously flagging in and objecting at this point based on what we know the anticipated evidence to be. So I don't know if a proffer is necessary at this point to outline what exactly he expects Dr. Condie to say and how that differs from the opinions of the other experts.

William Sullivan (51:34):

It seems to me that the main objection may lay in regards to Dr. Spinelli then, and depends on what her testimony is and how that overlaps with whatever Dr. Condie's is at this point.

Kevin Reddington (51:53):

If I may, Judge.

William Sullivan (51:53):

Yeah.

Kevin Reddington (51:53):

And I appreciate the fact that you recognize that we have not yet put on a doc yet. I don't have to accept their evidence. I don't have to accept their doctors. Our doctors, this is our first doctor who is a very qualified psychopharmacologist. I expect to elicit from him the treatment very briefly that she received and the medications that she was on and the effect of these medications as it relates to her condition when she was seeking medical help. That's it. I'm not going to get into criminal responsibility with him. I'm not going to get into lack of criminal responsibility with him. Basically psychopharmacology and the treatment that she received. He's not going to be criticizing what Gelada did, what Tufts did. He's just going to detail her condition according to the medical records and the medications that were provided.

(52:47)
I am well aware and very experienced in trying jury cases and know when you lose the jury. I'm not going to have Dr. Zeisel and Dr... I'm not going to have make Spinelli wax eloquently for hours and bore the jury to death. I'm going to get right to the chase. Dr. Spinelli is a well-qualified doctor on the issues of postpartum psychosis and postpartum depression and treating a pregnant woman and/or a postpartum perinatal client or a patient. Dr. Zeisel is a general psychologist and will be discussing a number of issues as you're well aware, because he's been involved with Lindsay for literally three years, 46 times he's seen her or something like that. So I'm going to focus their testimony on those fields. I don't think it's necessary for us to have Dr. Condie get up here on a voir dire so that they can hear what he's going to testify to. I'm not going to have him rambling or going off the script. He signed an affidavit, which is even, I think, better than a medical report that you usually get. So they have plenty to cross-examine him from.

William Sullivan (53:59):

All right. And the intention is not to ask the question regarding standard of care.

Kevin Reddington (54:04):

That's correct.

William Sullivan (54:04):

All right.

Kevin Reddington (54:05):

It's all been deleted because they objected, we moved. Yep.

William Sullivan (54:09):

All right. So over the Commonwealth's objection, I'm going to allow at this point Dr. Condie's testimony in line with the affidavit, basically in line with that affidavit, with the holding he's not to testify as to the standard of care opinion as he had the original statement.

Kevin Reddington (54:34):

Can I just tell him that to make sure?

William Sullivan (54:36):

Sure. Yeah. I think that's a great idea.

Speaker 13 (54:37):

[inaudible 00:54:40].

William Sullivan (55:09):

All right. So counsel, are we ready for the jury?

Kevin Reddington (55:12):

Yes, we are.

Jennifer Sprague (55:12):

Yes.

William Sullivan (55:12):

Okay.

Speaker 14 (55:12):

Bless you.

William Sullivan (55:24):

God bless you.

Speaker 1 (55:53):

All rise, please. Jurors entering.

Kevin Reddington (56:00):

Your Honor, could we approach while they're coming in?

William Sullivan (56:37):

Sure. Yeah. And basically the real problem was a technological issue. It was going to be a Zoom call. There's been some problems. We're going to try and work on that. So instead of going with that witness, we're going to go on to the next witness and then we'll put the technological problems for later. All right? So with that, Attorney Reddington?

Kevin Reddington (57:00):

Yes. Thank you, Judge. Dr. Condie.

Speaker 6 (57:01):

Good morning. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony and the evidence you shall [inaudible 00:57:31] swear to God?

Dr. Donald Condie (57:31):

I do.

Speaker 6 (57:31):

Thank you, sir. You may have a seat.

Dr. Donald Condie (57:31):

[inaudible 00:57:40].

William Sullivan (57:42):

All right. Good morning, Doctor.

Dr. Donald Condie (57:44):

Morning, Your Honor.

William Sullivan (57:44):

All right. Attorney Reddington.

Kevin Reddington (57:44):

Thank you, Judge. Doctor, could you keep your voice up so all the jurors and counsel can hear you and tell us your name and spell your last name?

Dr. Donald Condie (57:58):

My name is Donald Condie, C-O-N-D-I-E.

Kevin Reddington (58:03):

And tell us, what do you do for work, sir?

Dr. Donald Condie (58:06):

I'm a child, adolescent, and adult clinical and forensic psychiatrist.

Kevin Reddington (58:12):

And can you tell us your background as to where you went to school and when you got your medical degree and things of that nature?

Dr. Donald Condie (58:21):

I graduated from Tulane University, then spent some time in graduate school at the University of New Orleans, and went to medical school at Louisiana State University in New Orleans. And then I came to Boston to the Massachusetts Mental Health Center to train in psychiatry.

Kevin Reddington (58:44):

And where is that?

Dr. Donald Condie (58:47):

The Massachusetts Mental Health Center was at 74 Fenwood Road. That building has been demolished and now they're at 75 Fenwood Road in Boston.

Kevin Reddington (58:57):

I was referring to more like, is that affiliated with any particular medical schools?

Dr. Donald Condie (59:04):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (59:04):

What is it?

Dr. Donald Condie (59:05):

Harvard.

Kevin Reddington (59:06):

And what years were you working at the Mass Mental Health Center affiliated with Harvard?

Dr. Donald Condie (59:13):

I started there after medical school. I graduated in 1982 from medical school. Was an intern in 1982 to '83. And that was a Harvard affiliated internship. And then residency was '83 to '85 for adult training, two years. Then '85 to '87, which is two years of training for child and adolescent. Then I did a forensic fellowship also at the Mass Mental Health Center. And during that year, I spent some time at Harvard Law School as a visiting fellow.

Kevin Reddington (59:55):

And do you have, or did you have any board certifications that you can tell us about?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:00:00):

I'm board certified in adult and child and adolescent psychiatry.

Kevin Reddington (01:00:06):

Do you have a particular focus also on medications that are utilized in the course of psychiatry?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:00:14):

Yes. I've spent a great deal of my career treating people in the state system with psychotic disorders and mood disorders.

Kevin Reddington (01:00:26):

Tell us a little bit about that. Was there one particular period of time that you worked with literally more than a hundred people that had serious psychotic disorders?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:00:37):

Well, the Massachusetts Mental Health Center was a state inpatient facility. So we had many people with either no insurance or MassHealth insurance. Probably at least half of the patients at any given time would have had psychosis or a major depressive disorder.

Kevin Reddington (01:01:01):

Have you, in the course of your career, following through on psychosis or major depressive disorder, had any focus or treatment on women that are either pregnant or have had little babies and they are looking for help in the postpartum period?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:01:20):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:01:21):

Tell us about that.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:01:24):

Well, starting in my residency, so in 1983, we had several patients at the Massachusetts Mental Health Center who were pregnant and were also sometimes afflicted with psychosis. We also had people who had delivered a child but were then hospitalized sometimes with a psychotic depression or sometimes with simply suicidal ideation. And I've encountered that very few frequently since then. I was for 14 years the chief medical officer of Vinfen, which is a very large agency with contracts from the Department of Mental Health and the Department of Mental Retardation in Massachusetts and in Connecticut. We ran about 350 group homes, about 10 people per home, so maybe 3,500 patients. We frequently had people who were pregnant and were taking medications for psychosis. Sometimes after delivery, the severity of their psychosis would increase, so I'm fairly familiar with that phenomenon.

Kevin Reddington (01:02:53):

Doctor, how many years have you actually been practicing now as a physician?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:02:59):

I've been a licensed physician in Massachusetts since 1983.

Kevin Reddington (01:03:04):

So what's that? '83, '90, 2000, 2026. Okay. About 40 years.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:03:11):

A little more than 40 years.

Kevin Reddington (01:03:12):

Okay. From 1990 through 2012, were you affiliated with forensic child psychiatry with Mass General Hospital?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:03:21):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:03:22):

And were you also affiliated through 2013 with Mass General on forensic case consults in this field?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:03:31):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:03:32):

All right. I'm asking, have you had occasion to make a number of presentations? We have to go through them, but did you make a number of presentations working as a lecturer for the various medical schools, law schools, things like that?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:03:49):

Yes. Well, during the time that I was at Mass Health Center, I was a fellow at Harvard Medical School.

Kevin Reddington (01:04:01):

What does that mean to be a fellow?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:04:03):

It means-

Dr. Donald Condie (01:04:00):

... at Harvard Medical School.

Kevin Reddington (01:04:01):

What does that mean, to be a fellow?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:04:03):

It means you're a resident in a training program and you're teaching Harvard medical students things about the specialty in which you happen to be practicing.

Kevin Reddington (01:04:14):

And what was the specialty that you were a fellow lecturing Harvard medical students about?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:04:20):

First it was general psychiatry, then it was child and adolescent psychiatry, and then it was forensic psychiatry.

Kevin Reddington (01:04:28):

You also have had various scientific and medical publications that you have been authored on a number of occasions, articles. Is that correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:04:42):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:04:42):

All right. Your Honor, I'd offer his CV if I could, just as an exhibit, if that's accepted.

Speaker 15 (01:04:49):

Commonwealth.

Speaker 16 (01:04:53):

No objection.

Speaker 15 (01:04:53):

Okay. That may be admitted.

Kevin Reddington (01:04:54):

Thank you.

Speaker 17 (01:04:55):

[inaudible 01:04:59].

Kevin Reddington (01:05:00):

Now, Doctor, if you can tell me, do you know, not necessarily personally, but do you know of Lindsay Clancy?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:05:13):

I know about the case in general, but I don't know anyone personally.

Kevin Reddington (01:05:19):

Now you have never met her, is that correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:05:21):

That's correct.

Kevin Reddington (01:05:22):

You've never talked to her, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:05:24):

Never have.

Kevin Reddington (01:05:25):

You've never evaluated her for what's called criminal responsibility, is that correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:05:29):

That's correct. I have not.

Kevin Reddington (01:05:31):

I consulted with you for purposes of psychopharmacology and issues like that in this case. Is that right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:05:37):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:05:38):

Fair to say that we've had a number of conversations in the evening, off hours about various medications administered to women that are pregnant or postpartum. Is that right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:05:49):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:05:50):

Excuse me. Can you tell the jury, in a summary, what documentation, medical records, police reports, things of that nature on this case that you've had a chance to review?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:06:05):

Well, I've reviewed the records of Rebecca Jollotta, the nurse practitioner, Dr. Jennifer Tufts, the psychiatrist that saw Ms. Clancy. I've reviewed the Brigham and Women's Hospital records and the Women & Infants records. I've reviewed the McLean records. And I might be leaving something out.

Kevin Reddington (01:06:38):

You know about her background as far as her employment as a labor and delivery nurse and her family, her three children and her husband that she was married, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:06:45):

Yes, I'm familiar with that.

Kevin Reddington (01:06:47):

Okay. So if I could, Doctor, direct your attention to let's say the fall of 2022, end of September. Can you tell us what Lindsay's status was as far as maternity leave with work and any complaints that she had at that time regarding her mental state?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:07:10):

From my... Excuse me. Could I get some water?

Speaker 15 (01:07:18):

Get some on the way.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:07:19):

Thank you.

Kevin Reddington (01:07:20):

Thank you.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:07:20):

Appreciate it. Sorry, my allergies are kicking up. So from my review of the records, which would start with Dr. Tufts' records, my understanding is that Ms. Clancy was planning to go back to work as a labor and delivery nurse at Mass General. She worked, I believe, the 12 midnight to 12:00 AM shift. And she began to experience, as she had to some extent after her first two deliveries, some postpartum anxiety and consulted Dr. Tufts at that time.

Kevin Reddington (01:08:20):

Now, after she had her third child, Callan, was she in... Strike that. It's fair to say she was in treatment with Dr. Tufts as a treating physician?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:08:33):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:08:34):

Okay. And looking at your affidavit, I believe in paragraph nine, did you determine, from looking at the medical records as to the timeframe, that Lindsay treated with Dr. Tufts?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:08:46):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:08:47):

And what was that?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:08:48):

She started in the middle of September 2022, and I'm sure that her last appointment was January 23rd, 2023.

Kevin Reddington (01:09:02):

Now, did you have a chance to review Dr. Tufts' medical records?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:09:08):

Yes, I did.

Kevin Reddington (01:09:09):

Can you describe them for us, please?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:09:14):

They are somewhat sparse and there are many check boxes in the records, but not a great deal of sentences that describe what was done during sessions.

Kevin Reddington (01:09:35):

Were you aware that the sessions that Dr. Tufts conducted with Lindsay from September, the end of September, up through January 23rd, were all televised on a computer?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:09:50):

Yes, they were all video.

Kevin Reddington (01:09:54):

Do you recall the medications that Dr. Tufts prescribed Lindsay?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:10:00):

I believe the first medication she started was Zoloft, 25 milligrams.

Kevin Reddington (01:10:06):

And what is that? Tell us what Zoloft is.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:10:10):

Zoloft-

Kevin Reddington (01:10:10):

What effect does it have on a person?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:10:12):

I'm sorry?

Kevin Reddington (01:10:13):

What effect does that have on a person?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:10:15):

Well, Zoloft is a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, which is a type of antidepressant that started being used around 1988, I believe. Prozac was the first one, Zoloft was the second. When it works to be helpful, it combats both anxiety and depressive symptoms that people might have. It also has, in some people, an effect of causing a feeling of jitteriness and increasing anxiety. So it's something that does have some potential side effects as well as beneficial effects.

Kevin Reddington (01:11:06):

And when she was prescribed the original 25 milligrams of Zoloft, did she in fact take that or did she defer on taking that?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:11:15):

My recollection of the records is that she had it prescribed, picked it up, but did not take it for at least a couple of weeks because she did not wish to take medication. She was, I believe, still breastfeeding at that time. There are medications, and Zoloft would be one, that would likely appear to some extent in the breast milk.

Kevin Reddington (01:11:40):

Okay. So because she was worried about that, she held off on that, but ultimately did take the prescription from Dr. Tufts, is that right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:11:49):

The records indicate that she did eventually start taking the 25 milligrams.

Kevin Reddington (01:11:54):

Sorry. Does it indicate when she started taking them after that little hiatus?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:12:01):

To be exact, I'd have to look at the records, but I believe it was at the end of September.

Kevin Reddington (01:12:06):

And was that dosage increased at some point?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:12:10):

It increased from 25 milligrams to 50 milligrams.

Kevin Reddington (01:12:13):

And what happened when Lindsay took the 50 milligrams of Zoloft prescribed by Dr. Tufts?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:12:18):

The records indicate that she had a rather rapid series of difficulties. That she had insomnia for, I believe the records say 48 hours, couldn't sleep. It's something that would be called activation that these medications can cause in some people who are more susceptible.

Kevin Reddington (01:12:44):

By mid-October, after she began taking the Zoloft, would you agree that the records indicate, a week after starting the medication and increasing the dose, she reported in October to Dr. Tufts what you're relating is that she felt... How did she describe it to Dr. Tufts? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:13:03):

Well, she felt that she was... She talked about being numb. She talked about not being herself. She talked about feeling worse, not better. Antidepressants usually take at least two to three, and frequently four to six weeks, to have useful effects, but sometimes side effects can happen very quickly.

Kevin Reddington (01:13:33):

Did she also indicate, looking at your affidavit, that she was crying all day, she was experiencing mental fog, terrified to stat something new, anxiety had gotten much worse? Did she tell that to Dr. Tufts at that time in the end of October?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:13:49):

Yes, I do recall those things being in the record.

Kevin Reddington (01:13:52):

All right. And following through again on your affidavit, was there further explanation from Lindsay's recitation of symptomology to Dr. Tufts? Did she further state about racing thoughts, paranoia? What did she say? Looking at your report, look at your affidavit if that helps you refresh your memory.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:14:15):

I actually don't have the affidavit with me at the moment. I do have some of the records, but-

Kevin Reddington (01:14:22):

Well, let me just approach you then and hand you your affidavit, paragraph 13 and see if that refreshes your memory.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:14:30):

Thank you. Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:14:41):

What did she say to Dr. Tufts?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:14:47):

Dr. Tufts reported that Lindsay's psychiatric condition was generally deteriorating. That's a checkbox on one of the forms that her records-

Kevin Reddington (01:14:59):

What did Lindsay say her symptoms were at that point?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:15:06):

That she was having the racing thoughts and that she was also feeling, as I said, not like herself. That her depression was worse than it had been. I believe that's also around the time that Dr. Tufts thought of trying a medication called Zulresso.

Kevin Reddington (01:15:32):

Zulresso.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:15:33):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:15:33):

And what is that? You need that by way of injection?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:15:38):

Yes. Zulresso is no longer marketed. It wasn't a particularly successful medication. It requires a 60 hour continuous IV infusion.

Kevin Reddington (01:15:58):

In a hospital setting or in a medical setting?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:16:01):

You have to be medically monitored. It doesn't necessarily need to be a hospital, but those are not necessarily things that can be done outside of a hospital.

Kevin Reddington (01:16:09):

So she didn't do the Zulresso though, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:16:11):

She did not.

Kevin Reddington (01:16:12):

Okay.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:16:12):

It also costs $34,000 just for the medication, not for the monitoring.

Kevin Reddington (01:16:18):

Okay. What's the next thing that happened with Dr. Tufts and Lindsay Clancy, sir?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:16:27):

Well, if I look at my affidavit, when she stopped taking the medication, the Zoloft, she now felt better as she had felt before she took the Zoloft, but she was less anxious.

Kevin Reddington (01:16:50):

What was the next medication?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:16:54):

She was put on Benadryl and had some difficulty sleeping, but also was worried that night because her son was coughing and she worried a great deal about the children's health.

Kevin Reddington (01:17:15):

And that would be something that would also intrude on her sleep, worrying about her children?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:17:21):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:17:22):

Okay. What other symptomology traveling through November into December did she relate to Dr. Tufts, according to your review of the medical records?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:17:32):

Well, she talked about things like dizziness, feeling sedated in the morning when she woke up, if she got any sleep at all. And I think she used the term brain fog at times. These are sometimes symptoms that people who are experiencing postpartum depression frequently complain about. She continued to complain about anxiety.

Kevin Reddington (01:18:02):

Well, it's not what they're complaining about. It's what they're living, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:18:06):

It is a very unpleasant experience. Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:18:09):

And continuing on through November, at some point, did she leave or stop with Tufts and go to another healthcare provider by way of either emergency room initially and then another healthcare provider?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:18:23):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:18:24):

Who was that?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:18:25):

She started treatment with Rebecca Jollotta, a nurse practitioner at South Shore Perinatal Program.

Kevin Reddington (01:18:34):

Now, one of the things that was apparent, if you recall, I believe, that she also had initially been referred there by a friend of the family, is that right? To that perinatal clinic?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:18:48):

Yes. My understanding from the records is that Ms. Clancy's mother-in-law was friendly with a nurse practitioner who practiced in the perinatal program and I believe had actually started the perinatal program.

Kevin Reddington (01:19:04):

Yes. And ultimately, or in the beginning, she was treated by a Julie Paul. Is that correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:19:10):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:19:11):

Do you remember looking at the medical records and that on November 27th of 2022, Nurse Practitioner Julie Paul reported that Lindsay stated that she was disassociated and she was not in touch with reality? Do you remember that?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:19:28):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:19:29):

And is that a symptom of psychosis, to be disassociated and not in touch with reality?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:19:37):

It certainly can be. Dissociation can mean that people feel like things around them are not real.

Kevin Reddington (01:19:48):

Right. And that's a pretty serious feeling to have, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:19:51):

It is.

Kevin Reddington (01:19:52):

And that's pretty common, unfortunately, with women that have postpartum psychosis, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:19:57):

It certainly can be, yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:19:59):

And what are the other symptomologies of postpartum psychosis, sir?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:20:05):

Well, psychosis in general just means a lack of understanding of what's real as opposed to what is not. So a person with psychosis can have delusions, which are fixed false beliefs. They could believe that, for example, they have been told by God to do something. They can also have hallucinations at times.

Kevin Reddington (01:20:35):

What kind of hallucinations?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:20:38):

Most people have auditory hallucinations, not visual hallucinations.

Kevin Reddington (01:20:43):

Auditory is hearing, is that correct? Auditory is hearing, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:20:45):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:20:45):

Okay. As opposed to what?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:20:48):

As opposed to visual hallucinations.

Kevin Reddington (01:20:50):

Visual. And in the course of reviewing the medical records, did you see that, in fact, that Lindsay had auditory, no visual hallucinations, but auditory voices?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:21:02):

At times, she reported that she had heard a voice, yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:21:07):

Okay. Do you recall that as the time went by in December, do you remember seeing in the medical records that she was relating that she was heavy, that she couldn't get out of bed, that she couldn't bathe, that she couldn't react, she couldn't love, she couldn't feel? Do you remember any of that from looking at the medical records?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:21:25):

Yes. Those are all phrases that I recall from the medical records.

Kevin Reddington (01:21:28):

They were all coming from her, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:21:31):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:21:31):

To the doctors?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:21:33):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:21:34):

That would be Dr. Tufts and then Dr. Jollotta, is that right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:21:37):

Nurse Jollotta.

Kevin Reddington (01:21:39):

Sorry. Nurse Practitioner Jollotta. Do you recall, sir, that Nurse Practitioner Jollotta prescribed additional medications to Lindsay during that period of time from November through December?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:21:51):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:21:52):

Can you tell us what they were?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:21:55):

I'd have to look to be sure, but I believe she continued the Benadryl at times. And there was some talk about the use of BuSpar, but I believe that was Dr. Tufts.

Kevin Reddington (01:22:07):

About the what? I'm sorry.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:22:09):

I said... I'm sorry?

Kevin Reddington (01:22:11):

What was the word you just used?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:22:12):

Oh, sorry. BuSpar, which is the brand name for buspirone, which is an anti-anxiety medication.

Kevin Reddington (01:22:19):

Right. How about Remeron? Was there ever a prescription for Remeron?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:22:23):

Remeron is a different kind of antidepressant, which helps people sleep a little bit and also sometimes helps their appetite. Yes. That was another-

Kevin Reddington (01:22:34):

The answer is yes, she was prescribed Remeron?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:22:36):

Yes, she was.

Kevin Reddington (01:22:36):

And that's an antidepressant?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:22:39):

It is.

Kevin Reddington (01:22:39):

Is that marking or similar to, but not exactly the same as the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, Zoloft, Prozac, things of that nature, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:22:49):

It's similar in the sense that it has an antidepressant effect. It has some effect on serotonin. It has some effect on the adrenal adrenergic system as well.

Kevin Reddington (01:23:03):

The what?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:23:05):

The adrenergic system. Adrenaline is a neurotransmitter. It's also a hormone that circulates if you are suddenly scared or something like that, you get a surge of adrenaline. So if you were in a near miss car accident, you might find yourself shaking because adrenaline will flood into your system from the adrenal glands. But it's also a neurotransmitter and mirtazapine has some effect on that.

Kevin Reddington (01:23:31):

And you said mirtazapine, is that the same as Remeron?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:23:35):

Yes. Sorry.

Kevin Reddington (01:23:36):

So it's just two different names. Generic and not generic.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:23:39):

Mirtazapine is the generic name and I was taught to use generic names, but yes, Remeron is-

Kevin Reddington (01:23:45):

Around this time, Lindsay has been prescribed the Prozac. She had been prescribed the Remeron. She had been prescribed the Benadryl. She had been prescribed other medications very similar to the SSRIs. Is that correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:23:59):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:24:00):

All right. And does the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, that's fancy word, what does it mean? Isn't that serotonin in your brain? Doesn't it block or, in some fashion, affect your brain?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:24:13):

It's a little complicated to explain, but serotonin-

Kevin Reddington (01:24:16):

Tell the jury what serotonin means and what happens when you take an SSRI, please.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:24:20):

Okay. Serotonin in this sense is a neurotransmitter. The brain is a relatively complicated place. It has about 86 billion nerve cells. They've got thousands of connections to each other. But they're not like the wires in your house where you put two pieces of wire together, twist the copper, and then put a nut on that. Nerves don't touch. They go close to each other, but there's a space between them, and that's called the synaptic cleft. One nerve secretes a neurotransmitter into the synaptic cleft and it moves over to the next nerve in line where there's a receptor. Serotonin does that in the synaptic cleft. But it's also taken back up by the nerve that secreted it as a... So it's re-uptaked. So a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor slows down the reuptake of serotonin, prolonging its activity in the synaptic cleft, which causes the next nerve in line to be activated.

(01:25:34)
I'm sorry that it's so complicated. So that's what serotonin is doing and that's what a reuptake inhibitor does.

Kevin Reddington (01:25:43):

When someone is pregnant or has just had a baby, can you tell me what effect, for example, hormones have when a person has a baby? I know we're two guys, but I mean, do you know what happens when a woman has a baby?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:25:57):

I've been at quite a few deliveries, yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:26:01):

Okay.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:26:03):

The fact is that many hormones increase. So progesterone is a hormone that many people have heard of. It's a component of birth control pills because it promotes gestation. So progesterone in a birth control pill fools the body into thinking it's pregnant, which means the woman doesn't produce eggs that could be fertilized, and that's the way the birth control pill works, or some of them do. Progesterone goes down very quickly after birth, as do many other hormones that are going up and then down after birth.

Kevin Reddington (01:26:45):

So if the hormones go up, and if there's an overload, if you will, might be the wrong word, of hormones, what effect does that have on the human body? What effect does that have on a woman who's just had a baby?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:26:55):

Well, it's quite complicated.

Kevin Reddington (01:26:57):

Just tell us basically what your feeling is. If they want to get into it, they can ask. But what effect does it have on a woman that has a baby?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:27:04):

Well, one of the other hormones that goes up is prolactin. So after the woman gives birth, prolactin promotes lactation. And it's a hormone that increases so that the mother can then breastfeed. These hormones are also seen in all mammals that feed their young through producing milk. So it's a very common mammalian thing to do. But other kinds of things can happen to-

Kevin Reddington (01:27:39):

Excuse me. Did you say males or mammals?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:27:41):

Mammals.

Kevin Reddington (01:27:42):

Okay. Because males don't breastfeed, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:27:44):

I'm sure they don't, yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:27:46):

Okay. So as far as the hormone, again, I would ask, when a woman has a baby and the placenta, I think I pronounced that right, through the birth, all of a sudden what happens? It stops that massive influx of hormones or it increases that influx of hormones?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:28:06):

Well, some hormones go up like prolactin and some hormones go down very quickly.

Kevin Reddington (01:28:11):

What effect does that have, in your experience and your education and your research, on women that have a baby? What effect does that have on them?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:28:20):

Well, many women experience postpartum blues.

Kevin Reddington (01:28:24):

What is postpartum blues?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:28:25):

It's a feeling of-

Kevin Reddington (01:28:26):

[inaudible 01:28:27].

Dr. Donald Condie (01:28:27):

I'm sorry?

Kevin Reddington (01:28:28):

Sounds like a '50s thing. What's postpartum blues?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:28:32):

It's a feeling of low energy and being sad. Not as serious or usually as long as postpartum depression.

Kevin Reddington (01:28:45):

What is postpartum depression? Is that the next level?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:28:48):

It's a more serious condition where the woman may feel that she can't connect to the baby, that she feels isolated, she has no energy. She may also have insomnia.

Kevin Reddington (01:29:05):

So for example, if a woman is unable to sleep, feels as though she's losing a contact or connection with her infant, is stressing about not having that contact with her infant, feels that she's unable to emote or feel love or any emotions and can't relate to people and also is out of reality, or disassociative state, are those, in your opinion, symptoms of postpartum depression and/or leading to postpartum psychosis?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:29:36):

Yes, they are.

Kevin Reddington (01:29:38):

And Lindsay had those symptoms, didn't she?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:29:40):

She reported all those symptoms, yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:29:43):

Doctor, when a doctor like Tufts is meeting with a person and checking the boxes, can that doctor give a blood test to the patient?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:29:54):

Certainly.

Kevin Reddington (01:29:55):

Is that important, in your opinion, that a doctor give a patient, especially a woman who's coming to them for help with these symptoms, give them a blood test?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:30:05):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:30:06):

And again, we all know what blood tests are, but just tell me. I mean, is that a simple test? Is it a complicated test?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:30:12):

It's fairly simple to have blood drawn. And there are many tests that are relevant, particularly after a woman has given birth.

Kevin Reddington (01:30:22):

Why?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:30:24):

Well, some women become anemic. It depends on how much blood loss might have occurred during birth, but there's usually some blood loss, so checking hemoglobin levels is important. The thyroid can be affected by delivery of the baby. And some women in the postpartum period develop inflammation of the thyroid. The thyroid is a very important gland that regulates many parts of the body.

Kevin Reddington (01:30:59):

Is that why, many times when a competent psychiatrist is treating a patient that is postpartum after having a baby, that they might run, and I may be wrong saying it, but a thyroid test?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:31:12):

They would do most commonly two different kinds of thyroid tests. They would test for thyroid stimulating hormone, which goes up when the thyroid hormones that also can be tested for actually go down. So thyroid stimulating hormone is telling the body make more thyroid hormone because it's not enough in the circulation.

Kevin Reddington (01:31:33):

Did Tufts ever use a blood test at all in her treatment?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:31:39):

No, she did not.

Kevin Reddington (01:31:40):

Did Tufts ever check the thyroid levels of Lindsay Clancy at all during her treatment?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:31:46):

No, she did not.

Kevin Reddington (01:31:47):

How about Jollotta? Did they test any of those things?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:31:51):

No. Nurse Jollotta did not do blood testing either.

Kevin Reddington (01:31:56):

Now you've made reference, sir, to postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis. You're familiar with the DSM or what it's referring to as DSM?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:32:12):

5-TR.

Kevin Reddington (01:32:14):

Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. 5, you said TR, that would be right there, meaning test revision?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:32:21):

Correct.

Kevin Reddington (01:32:21):

All right. And I'm approaching you with this and asking, do you see that section there?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:32:34):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:32:34):

And what is that section?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:32:37):

The bipolar related disorder section.

Kevin Reddington (01:32:39):

What is bipolar disorder? What does that mean?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:32:43):

Bipolar is the newer name for what used to be called manic depressive illness. It describes an illness where people's moods go up, which is the manic phase, and then go down, which is the depressed phase. There are different categories of bipolar disorder. Bipolar I is the most serious. Bipolar II disorder also has similar fluctuations of mood. But in both cases of bipolar disorder, most people spend more time being depressed than they do being manic.

Kevin Reddington (01:33:27):

Now, just tell me, what does manic mean? What does that actually mean?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:33:31):

They feel usually euphoric that they don't have-

Kevin Reddington (01:33:36):

They're up?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:33:36):

You're really up.

Kevin Reddington (01:33:38):

Okay.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:33:39):

You're extremely optimistic. You might spend a lot of money foolishly, but you wouldn't worry about that because certainly you're going to win the lottery. You can just feel it. So there can be psychotic thoughts along with bipolar mania, unreasonable expectations. Like I said, you are destined to win the lottery, or in serious cases you can believe that God is speaking to you and has pointed you to do some special thing in life.

Kevin Reddington (01:34:14):

How about excessive cleaning and let's say divesting oneself of personal property, cleaning garages, things of that nature?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:34:26):

There was talk in the records of an episode where Ms. Clancy and her husband cleaned out the garage, but it was difficult to tell from the records whether or not that represented what we would call a hypomanic episode.

Kevin Reddington (01:34:41):

Exercise. There's a lot of references to exercise.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:34:44):

There were a lot of references to exercise, and exercise can be a very useful thing.

Kevin Reddington (01:34:53):

Sure. That's one of the things that a woman postpartum may very well be prescribed to do by a doctor or a nurse practitioner like Jollotta, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:35:01):

I believe that nurse practitioner Julie Paul recommended a long run at one point.

Kevin Reddington (01:35:08):

So there's nothing wrong with a woman going to, let's say, Kingsbury or whatever it is, or taking her kids to the local gym with a swimming pool and trying to get some exercise in the postpartum stage. That's something you wouldn't hold against it, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:35:24):

No.

Kevin Reddington (01:35:25):

Okay. Now, how about, are you aware that within a very short period of time after she had baby Callan, that she actually ran a road race?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:35:36):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:35:37):

Is that indicative of a person that's kind of ramped up and doing these things you're talking about?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:35:45):

It's unusual to decide to run so soon after delivering a baby. I believe that she ran on the day that she might've delivered her last child, Callan.

Kevin Reddington (01:35:58):

That's correct. So during the month of December-

Kevin Reddington (01:36:00):

So, during the month of December, in your review of the records, would you agree that her symptoms that she has related to the doctors that were there to help her, they basically increased, did they not?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:36:16):

I'm sorry. I couldn't ...

Kevin Reddington (01:36:17):

They increased.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:36:19):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:36:20):

And are you aware that then she went somewhere voluntarily in December?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:36:26):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:36:26):

Where?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:36:28):

She went to the Mass General Emergency Room on ... I believe that was in December. She had gone to the South Shore Emergency Room previously.

Kevin Reddington (01:36:37):

And did you, in the record, see that in fact she had gone to Women & Infants program in Rhode Island for a day?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:36:48):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:36:49):

And are you familiar with that particular establishment as that supposedly helps pregnant women?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:36:56):

Yes. I reviewed those records as well.

Kevin Reddington (01:36:58):

And do you know why she was discharged after a day?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:37:05):

The records stated that they thought that she was having complications from medications more than she was suffering from postpartum issues, and therefore, was not a good candidate for their program.

Kevin Reddington (01:37:22):

And this was after getting there at 8:00 in the morning and leaving there around 4:00 in the afternoon, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:37:27):

That's my understanding, yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:37:28):

And the records indicate, if you read them, that during that period of time, there were little group discussions and coloring sessions and things like that. Is that correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:37:37):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:37:39):

You know that there are suicide hotlines that people are told to call, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:37:44):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:37:45):

Especially if a woman is in postpartum and is experiencing these difficulties and is describing the symptomology and on all these medications that if you feel like you're going to kill yourself, you're supposed to call a telephone number, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:38:01):

Well, it wouldn't be the advice I would give, but that was some advice that was given, yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:38:06):

And did she call, to your knowledge, from reviewing the records, the telephone?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:38:10):

She called the Aspire hotline, I believe on two occasions.

Kevin Reddington (01:38:16):

And was she given any help by the Aspire hotline?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:38:21):

I believe the records say that she was told by Aspire that since she did not have a suicide plan, she did not require what's called a higher level of care, meaning an inpatient admission.

Kevin Reddington (01:38:36):

So, she basically had been to Nurse Jollotta. She had contacted Aspire on two occasions. She went to Rhode Island Hospital on a recommendation the day after she was recommended to go there and left after not being accepted. After calling the suicide hotlines, things got to the point where she and her husband went to an emergency room. Is that right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:39:04):

Yes.

Kevin Reddington (01:39:05):

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