Transportation Committee Hearing

Chairman Nehls (00:00):

… to documentsti@mail.house.gov.

(00:04)
I want to take a moment and reflect a little bit about what took place on January 29th, 2025, losing 65 lives, American Airlines Flight 5342 and PAT 25, just a few short miles from here. We have some families with us today, and I would like to recognize them. We have Laura [inaudible 00:00:35] and Amy Hunter. These are cousins. Laura and Amy are cousins of the Livingston family who passed away in the crash. They lost Peter and Donna Livingston, and their daughters, Everly and Alydia. Laura and Amy, would you please stand, and be recognized? If I could, I would like to take a moment of silence. If everybody would please stand for a moment of silence in honor of the 67 lives lost.

(01:25)
Thank you. You may be seated.

(01:25)
I now recognize myself for the purpose of an opening statement for five minutes. Good morning and thank you to our panel of witnesses for being here today. Your testimony will no doubt provide valuable insight into today's critical discussion on air traffic control infrastructure and staffing. I want to be very clear, the reason that we are here today is that in its current form, this country's air traffic control system is unsustainable. It's unsustainable. That statement shouldn't come as a surprise to those in this room. In fact, many of the panelists before us today have been ringing the alarm bell for decades, for decades, on the need for ATC modernization, increased hiring of controllers, and stable funding streams for the FAA. Dating back to 1995, the Government Accountability Office, or the GAO, has classified the FAA's efforts to modernize our AT system as high risk. High risk.

(02:45)
While efforts have been made to address this deep-rooted, since the '90s, it's clear they have fallen short. I say that not to heap blame, but to make clear that we're not much closer to a solution than we were in 1995. We need to rewrite the previous playbook and begin digging out of the hole that we've found ourselves in. And this moment, this moment in time represents a unique opportunity for the members of this subcommittee and all aviation stakeholders to coalesce around a common goal, meaningful air traffic control modernization that will benefit the flying public and all users of the National Airspace System. At the request of this subcommittee, GAO undertook a more recent study on the FAA's air traffic control system. Published just last year, the report noted the urgent need to modernize aging systems and found 51 of the agency's 138 ATC systems were unsustainable, that's roughly 37%.

(04:05)
54 of the agency's 138 AT systems were potentially unsustainable, roughly 39%. So look at this, 105 systems out of the 138 identified as unsustainable or potentially unsustainable, and 58 of those have critical operational impacts on the safety and efficiency of the national airspace. For a country that considers itself the gold standard in aviation safety, these numbers are unacceptable and we must do better. While it is easy to lay blame at the feet of the FAA, and their project management is certainly not blameless, we also have to look at our own shortfalls. With a finite budget, capital budget, and unstable funding, the agency is forced into the impossible predicament of having to dedicate vast amounts of money on simply sustaining old and outdated systems, leaving little left over for the capital improvement projects. Furthermore, it is admittedly a technical challenge to modernize a robust system with little to no interruption that runs 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, transporting almost 3 million passengers daily.

(05:34)
So solving this problem will require the support of all the parties involved. However, if we're all pulling in the same direction, I have no doubt Congress can rise to the occasion. Much like Chairman Graves, and I suspect many others in this room, I was thrilled to hear that President Trump and Secretary Duffy have voiced their support for historic investments in air traffic control facilities and technologies. And keeping with the theme of today's hearing, America Builds, in the President's promise on building physical infrastructure, this is truly a unique opportunity to modernize our air traffic system. Once again, I would like to thank our witnesses for being here today, and I look forward to their testimony as we tackle one of the largest issues facing the long-term success of the aviation industry in this country. I now recognize Ranking Member Cohen for five minutes for an opening.

Mr. Cohen (06:37):

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate you scheduling this hearing, which is so important at this time. It would've been important regardless, but it's most important now. The full-flying public deserves a strong, modern and well-staffed air traffic control system. No question. Today that system is under strain and it's been under strain for some time. Under Democratic and Republican presidents, it's been bipartisan in its failure to address the problems. We don't have enough air traffic controllers and haven't for many, many years. Some of that's goes back to President Reagan, firing air traffic controllers, think were 11,000 fired. And we don't have enough technicians maintaining critical infrastructure. The recent and tragic midair collision at DCA is just the latest grim reminder that safety cannot be taken for granted. We've seen too many close calls in this country, runway incursions, midair near misses, in addition to the other tragic accidents that should serve as a wake-up call.

(07:39)
They're not just flukes these accidents, they're symptoms of an overburdened system and a workforce stretched too thin. This committee was not asleep at the wheel. Last year in a bipartisan bill, led by Mr. Graves and Mr. Larsen, the 2024 FAA Reauthorization Law took important steps toward improving safety and staffing. That law just needs to be followed. Like all other laws and constitutional provisions need to be followed. It directs the FAA to maximize hiring from the agency's Air Traffic Control Academy and requires new staffing models for safety critical personnel to ensure we meet future demands. It also strengthens oversight of safety inspectors and ensures the FAA has the resources necessary to provide and to prevent near misses and runway incursions. While these new provisions are important, their implementation is even more critical, and it's just getting the administration to follow through. And that's why we welcome the announcement by Transportation Secretary Duffy to supercharge the hiring of air traffic controllers, including a 30% increase in starting salaries.

(08:48)
However, instead of unleashing DOGE and Elon Musk's young cronies, this administration should follow through with the mandates that have been set by this committee and by this Congress. They are the law of the land. We cannot afford reckless disruptions in the dedicated safety workforce that keeps the system running. The Trump administration's unjustified firing of talented FAA employees, including NATCA and PASS members, the very professionals responsible for maintaining critical air traffic control equipment, their firing was a dangerous and unnecessary move. These firings have consequences and one of them has diminished ability to ensure safety and reliable air traffic. Even worse, there are some that think we should hand over the FAA to a billionaire who's made so many mistakes in this DOGE program that he's shown he is imperfect. Imperfect, more often than not. He has a history of disregarding safety protocols and called on it by the FAA and the previous administrator, he came back, tried to get the FAA administrator fired, and I believe that's why he resigned, because he said, "We needed to get rid of him."

(10:04)
He also wanted to change regulations the FAA has because it interfered with his SpaceX, that the last one ended up … Sending one up tonight, hopefully it won't land in the Gulf of Mexico like the last one did. Let me be clear, this is not the time for Elon Musk or anyone else to play fast and loose with aviation safety. The FAA is the aviation expert and an airspace regulator that exists to protect the flying public, not solely to serve at the whims of a private industry. We must reject any attempts to privatize air traffic control systems. We must focus on policies that actually strengthen our air traffic control system and have broad support among industry and labor.

(10:42)
Congress has provided clear bipartisan instructions for strengthening aviation safety. These laws must be implemented and not ignored. As we will hear today, we must hire more controllers, we must ensure proper safe staffing for safety critical positions, and must never let political games or misguided corporate ambitions get in the way of keeping our airspace safe. And once again, I thank Chairman Graves and Ranking Member Larsen for the outstanding work they led us in in passing the bipartisan bill that just needs to be followed. I yield back the balance of my time.

Chairman Nehls (11:10):

The gentleman yields. I now recognize the ranking member of the full committee. Mr. Larsen, you have five minutes or take all the time you want, sir.

Mr. Larsen (11:18):

Got it. Thanks. Thank you, Chair Nehls, for holding today's hearing to examine the ways that we can improve the air traffic control infrastructure and staffing. I want to thank the witnesses as well today for joining us, representing aviation labor, general aviation, the airlines, aviation experts, you're all playing a critical role in helping us understand how we can ensure the safety of the flying public. The tragic midair collision near the Washington National Airport, the incident in Chicago Midway Airport, and recent runway incursions prove a stark reality, that the US aviation system is incredibly strained. As this committee continues to keep the victims and the families, some of whom are here today, in our thoughts, it reminds me of the importance of the work that we're doing and what's at stake if we fail to address the challenges that continue to plague the National Airspace System, or the NAS.

(12:11)
So nearly one year into implementation of the 2024 FAA Reauthorization Law and a few weeks into the new administration, this committee's at a critical juncture for US aviation, as the administration is, I think, wasting valuable time and resources. We need to invest in safety investments and enhancements now. Enhancements to the FAA's aging ATC infrastructure. We have to grow and support our skilled aviation safety workforce. And we need to reject the administration, any administration action, that undermines them or demoralizes them. We need these folks showing up to work every day, focused on their work, not on whether they're going to be able to go to work the next day. The overwhelming bipartisan 2024 FAA Reauthorization Law is a blueprint for these safety reforms that are needed to improve the ATC system. These solutions are well reasoned. These solutions were hard fought. These solutions present the best path forward towards improving the safety of the NAS.

(13:10)
The FAA's primary responsibility is to facilitate the safe operation of the NAS, which relies heavily on the expertise of the FAA's workforce. Whether it's air traffic controllers directing aircraft across the country, technical operations specialists installing advanced runway equipment at US airports, or even program assistants who are supporting various teams at the agency. They all are critical in achieving the safety mission at the FAA. Aviation experts have long raised concerns about the understaffing of the FAA's safety critical roles. For instance, the independent NAS Safety Review Team found that these workforce gaps, quote, "Further erode the margin of safety and increased risk," end quote.

(13:54)
It's alarming then that at such a tenuous time for the US aviation, the administration has decided to purge the FAA of employees, hundreds of them. These folks are not just a handful of junior hires, as some have callously claimed. They're talented individuals who've dedicated the lives to aviation safety and careers in service to their country. So Mr. Chairman, I'd like to enter in the record, if you could, a letter from myself, Ranking Member Cohen, Ranking Member Connolly and T&I Democratic colleagues, to Secretary Duffy, and I'll have a chance to talk to secretary this afternoon about this letter, demanding answers on these firings and the unproductive, "What did you do last week?" emails, and how the department will prevent these actions from jeopardizing aviation safety.

Chairman Nehls (14:39):

Without objection.

Mr. Larsen (14:41):

Thank you. The Reauthorization Law recognizes the importance of the safety workforce by requiring the agency to annually hire the maximum number of controllers from the ATC Training Academy, update the antiquated staffing models for controllers, safety inspectors, and other critical safety positions, and expand the agency's training resources. Now, I want to recognize the administration has taken positive steps, including last week to accelerate controller hiring, but these efforts are going to be in vain if the indiscriminate firing of safety employees at the FAA continues. So the FAA's safety mission also depends on very complex ATC systems that provide navigation and surveillance services for more than 45,000 flights every day. However, many of these FAA's ATC facilities and equipment, or F&E, have exceeded their expected service life cycle, which has made worse by inadequate funding requests over several administrations for the FAA's F&E budget. A point the chairman has made eloquently in his opening statement. Despite increasing appropriations in recent years, the 2024 budgetary estimates shows that the FAA needs four and a half billion dollars for F&E, with that funding need quickly approaching 6 billion in a few years.

(15:57)
So the nation's ATC infrastructure can no longer rely on archaic technology, like floppy disk and aging radar systems, to keep our skies safe. And that's why the [inaudible 00:16:07] authorization directed the FAA to accelerate the replacement of outdated, insufficient, unsafe, or unstable legacy systems. The law also requires the FAA to prioritize the development of runway safety systems and innovative air traffic management technologies. The law lays out the policies the DOT can implement now to bolster our air traffic control system and help ensure our skies remain safe for the traveling public. I am open to new ideas to modernize the system. That's the primary reason we're all here today. But having consultants with no experience in the industry, and clear conflicts of interests, to tell us what we already know, what we already outlined in the law, is unhelpful. Show us your work, show us your results, and we'll judge the quality of it.

(16:54)
Recently, a broad coalition of aviation stakeholders, some of whom are here today, released recommendations to modernize the ATC infrastructure. I look forward to hearing more about those details. Now as this committee works to strengthen our ATC system, we ought to ensure that aviation safety is not dictated by special consultants, but it is dictated by experts in aviation safety. We can all agree the status quo of the NAS is not sustainable. We agree on that. That's why we wrote the FAA Reauthorization Law. That's why we put in basically the work plan for the FAA to deal with it. But we need to focus on our forward-looking consensus recommendations. So I'm pleased to see, in a recent letter sent to this committee, the majority of the aviation industry are, quote, "Not pursuing privatization of US ATC services, rightly deeming a distraction from needed investments and reforms."

(17:47)
In the past, this committee has debated the issue of privatization, only to see it fail to even receive a vote on the house floor. All the while critical progress on actually improving our ATC system was stalled or delayed. We've seen that movie before. I'm glad the industry has decided against funding the sequel. To build a safe, innovative, and efficient American ATC system, the path forward is clear. Swiftly implement the Reauthorization Law, fully staff the FAA, and invest in deploying safety critical technology. Look forward to hearing from today's panel on how Congress, the FAA, and the aviation industry will work together to make this all happen. With that I yield back.

Chairman Nehls (18:26):

Gentlemen yields. I now recognize the chairman of the full committee, Mr. Graves.

Chairman Graves (18:30):

Thank you, Chairman Nehls. And I do want to thank our witnesses for all of you being here. Today's hearing topic obviously shouldn't come as surprise to anyone because our nation's air traffic control system is outdated, and it's got to be modernized for the benefit and safety of all users of the National Airspace System. While this issue has been thrust back into the spotlight following a string of tragic accidents, it's not a new debate, and we all know that. As a committee, we have to decide how to utilize advancements in technology to supplement the daily work done by our dedicated air traffic controllers working the towers and working in the centers. And I look forward to working with fellow members and stakeholders to find common sense solutions that are going to improve the hiring of controllers, it's going to boost the air traffic control system and advance safety for the flying public.

(19:27)
And furthermore, I'm very excited that both President Trump and Secretary Duffy have voiced their support for historic investments in air traffic control facilities and technologies. This moment represents a unique opportunity, I think, to transform our air traffic control system. So to build on what Rick was just saying, the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024 contains some provisions that were designed to bolster aviation safety and modernize our air traffic control system by, one, requiring the FAA to annually hire the maximum number of air traffic controllers from the agency's ATC Training Academy, as Rick pointed out. It requires the FAA to conduct an audit of all legacy systems in use by the agency and mandating that the agency develop a plan to accelerate the replacement of those legacy systems. However, it's incumbent upon Congress to build upon these provisions in the FAA bill and take a hard look at the way FAA invests in and modernizes our nation's ATC system in order to improve safety and strengthen America's leadership in aviation.

(20:37)
And I was pleased to see that industry stakeholders recently signaled their support for a consensus driven approach to modernizing our ATC system, which has been backed by the airlines, it's backed by unions, it's backed by the general aviation community, and many, many others. We simply cannot allow past issues that divided Congress and industry stakeholders to distract us from getting something done. We have to work together. And I fully intend to do just that. So again, I'd like to thank our witnesses again for their willingness to lend us your expertise as we continue to work on … As we continue this very important discussion. So with that, Chairman Nehls, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Chairman Nehls (21:24):

Thank you, sir. I would like to now welcome our witnesses briefly. I'll take a moment to explain our lighting system. Three lights in front of you. Obviously green means go. Yellow, you're running out of time. And red means to please conclude your remarks. I ask [inaudible 00:21:40] consent that the witnesses full statements be included into the record. Without objection, so ordered. I also ask [inaudible 00:21:47] consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in writing. Without objection, so ordered. I also ask [inaudible 00:22:00] consent that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by members or witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing. Without objection, so ordered. And as your written testimony has been made part of the record, the subcommittee asks that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes. With that, Ms. Krause, you are recognized.

Ms. Krause (22:23):

Chairman Graves, Chairman Nehls, Ranking Member Larsen, Ranking Member Cohen, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss our work on air traffic control modernization. I first want to acknowledge the magnitude of FAA's modernization efforts. FAA managed the world's busiest and most complex system. Its air traffic controllers rely on 138 systems to safely and efficiently route over 45,000 flights each day. Many of these systems are aging and face long-standing challenges, including the unavailability of parts and the retirement of knowledgeable technicians. FAA's modernization includes replacing and upgrading many of its systems. It also involves bringing more functionality through the development of new systems and software. These efforts, when implemented, can help controllers better track, sequence and manage flights, ensure more reliable communications with pilots, and provide more efficient flight routes while also enhancing safety. To help achieve results, FAA must coordinate with many program schedules in its overall efforts with a full range of aviation stakeholders. Buy-in from airlines is particularly important as they too must invest in new equipment.

(23:32)
Along with these modernization efforts, FAA must ensure that today's system safely operates 24/7/365 days a year. FAA has made progress implementing some aspects of its modernization efforts. For example, we reported that since 2018, FAA met or beat several key milestones, such as deploying enhanced surveillance technologies at planned towers and airports. While some progress has been made, we have identified several critical issues facing FAA's efforts and areas where better management and oversight is needed. For example, a major issue has been the slow pace of FAA's efforts. FAA's 2023 operational risk assessment of its ATC systems revealed that 75% of the 138 systems are unsustainable or potentially unsustainable. Many of these systems have critical operational impacts on airspace safety and efficiency. Yet our 2024 work found that of the dozens of the systems we examined, FAA took on average more than four years to establish cost, schedule and performance baselines for these investments.

(24:37)
And FAA provides limited oversight of investments prior to establishing a baseline. After establishing a baseline, these investments take years to complete. For the nine investments that we looked at, that had established a baseline, FAA plans to take on average almost 13 years to complete them. In addition, FAA did not have ongoing investments associated with four systems critical for safety and efficiency. In each of the four critical next gen program areas we examined in 2023, FAA missed at least one and sometimes a number of its major milestones. FAA missed some by months, others by years. For example, FAA missed a 2021 milestone for deploying initial digital communication services to all 20 facilities that serve en route flights. FAA more recently anticipated completion by May 2025. FAA's management and oversight of risks also needs attention. In particular, we found that FAA's Acquisition Oversight Council did not consistently monitor high risks and provided limited oversight of ATC system investments.

(25:42)
And counter to FAA policy, it didn't ensure investments delivered functionality in manageable segments. For its overall next gen program, we found FAA had not developed a detailed risk mitigation plan. Such a plan would identify and prioritize high risks, include a range of mitigation approaches, and explain why a particular mitigation was selected. We have recommended urgent action by FAA to fix these critical issues. These include developing systems and manageable segments, establishing cost and schedule baselines in an expeditious manner, strengthening oversight of investments, systematically assessing and addressing risks, and ensuring the agency and Congress has a clear picture of costs. FAA generally concurred with our recommendation and has begun to act on them.

(26:31)
Quick and continued action is needed to accelerate FAA's delivery of modernization investments. In turn, such action can help FAA minimize risks associated with legacy systems. In addressing these critical and implementing the related provisions in the FAA Reauthorization Act will be critical as traffic volume and complexity of the airspace increases. Congress's call for FAA to lead the way towards what could be a smarter, more agile and information-centric ATC system will also go a long way towards addressing these challenges. This concludes my statement. I look forward to answering your questions.

Chairman Nehls (27:06):

Thank you, Ms. Krause. Mr. Calio, you are recognized.

Mr. Calio (27:11):

Good morning, Chairman Nehls, Ranking Member Cohen, and other members of the subcommittee. And of course, Chairman Graves and Ranking Member Larsen. Thank you for inviting me to testify in this critically important issue of improving our nation's air traffic control system. I'd first like to take a moment to honor the lives of those lost and those impacted in recent aviation accidents. And to thank the first responders who unflinchingly reacted quickly and put their own lives at risk. Safety above all is aviation's North Star. It is so overwhelming in every facet of our operations and culture that when rare moments of tragedy occur, they shake us to our core, and we continue what we do every day, look for other ways to improve. Our thoughts are with those lost and the families left behind. I also want to take a moment to talk about aviation safety, because safety is our North star, commercial air travel in the United States is the safest mode of transportation in the world. It is literally safer than walking out of your own front door.

(28:19)
Transportation Safety Board Chair, Homendy, has held up aviation to other modes of transportation as a model of collaboration to safety. Our safety systems have many layers and many redundancies, but we always look for ways to improve on the record that we have. Now to the topic of today, I agree with you all, we have a historic opportunity. We need to change a system that has significant material challenges, which is willfully obsolescent, unreliable, and inefficient, due to a multitude of well-documented and inefficient critical staffing, facility, technology, equipment, funding and investment deficiencies. It's quite a list. A4A urges this committee to provide the leadership that's desperately needed to support investment in both human and technology infrastructure within the Federal Aviation Administration. You've made a great start last year on the FAA Reauthorization Bill, which is a marvelous bill, very well put together. For over 14 years now, I've been saying that we are at an inflection point with the NAS and that we all need to act with urgency.

(29:29)
We have talked and talked, a lot in this room, and very little has changed. At least not much for the better. We're past the inflection point now. I think that's clear to everybody. Three days after taking the job as CEO of A4A in January of 2011, I was asked to testify before this committee about the state of ATC. I brought a stack of DOT Inspector General Reports and General Accountability Officer Reports. 14 years later, I hope this congress and this administration will agree that it's not acceptable to just continue to tolerate a chronically understaffed system. Just like it's not acceptable for controllers and technicians to have to work with paper strips and floppy disks to operate the National Airspace System in the United States. I showed these to some people in my office, they couldn't tell me what they were, because they were under 30.

(30:20)
We need to change, and again, it's a question of what we're going to do to make it different. We value this committee's leadership. We encourage, by the dedication of both President Trump and Secretary Duffy, to take on these difficult challenges. Secretary Duffy has done an awful lot in two months to focus the DOT on these matters that matter so most to our safety system. You've mentioned it, it's critical that we put the debates of the past and the inherent political inertia behind us to try to actually all join together to get something done. Everybody on this panel signed the letter that this committee has encouraging action. We want action,

Mr. Calio (31:00):

And not political debate. It's not a partisan or jurisdictional issue. So while [inaudible 00:31:08] detailed recommendations are attached to a written statement, along with the broader list of the coalition's recommendations, what we need to accomplish boils down to getting an emergency funding proposal signed into law that will ensure enough skilled people, controllers and technicians, to work. Expansion of Oklahoma City, the resumption of the College Training Initiative, which was taken away in 2014, in which the private sector can get involved and can put a surge in that pipeline of controllers that's geographically diverse and not subject to government shutdown.

(31:43)
A plan to ensure that they can procure modern technology while divesting the old, take advantage of the procurement authority they were given in 1995 by the Congress, a long-term fix to the budgeting process that will allow the FAA to plan long-term capital projects. Look, we know there are no silver linings to this tragedy, we know there are no silver bullets, but we have to start somewhere, and we have to take an urgency to it every single day. This committee has a small and closing window of opportunity. We'd like to help you take that opportunity, so let's do it. We look forward to your questions. Thank you.

Chairman Nehls (32:23):

Thank you, sir. Mr. Bunce, you're recognized for five minutes.

Mr. Bunce (32:26):

Chairman Nehls, Ranking Member Cohen, Chairman Graves Ranking Member Larsen, thank you for again letting me be in front of this committee. As we mourn the loss of not only the tragedy at DCA here, but also up in Philly, up in Alaska, even the mid-airs that we had in Arizona, we look to the NTSB to give us the answers to what happened, whether it was human error, mechanical, weather or some touch of the ATC system, but we know that they will give us those answers. But what these tragedies have done has galvanized us in the attention to what you've all talked about, the unsustainability of the current system.

(33:04)
And it is notable, for me, that I've been in this position for 20 years now, and never have we had unanimity among unions, among all of the associations that you work with each and every day. And it's so important that we do something, at this time, and I really hope that it is this committee that shows that leadership. What you did during the last Congress just made us all proud. It was done bipartisanly, it was done with good government, and it was the shining example, in the last Congress, of get things done, have good recommendations, and we've got to be able to follow through.

(33:45)
Just in the debate we're having right now, if we go through a CR for the rest of the year, we're going to be $600 million short of what the appropriators already said we needed, and that money has eroded. Back in 2010, if you compare it to what the erosion in buying power has been since then, we're a billion short of where just we were back in 2010. So we all know, as you've all said, that it is unsustainable. And so, when our coalition got together, we talked about some important things that we have to be able to do.

(34:19)
First of all, is due this emergency funding. If you look at the eight billion that was asked for last year from the administration, that was only going to address about a quarter, out there, of the facilities that need improvement. Only a quarter. So it's a significant infusion of dollars that we have to have in the process. But also we've got to be able to look at the procurement system that the FAA has. Back in the nineties, you all gave the authorities, to the FAA, to be able to fix the procurement system and use some streamlined authorities.

(34:50)
Now we've seen some examples, recently, where Tim Arel, at the ATO, have fielded systems for surface awareness and things, and done it quickly. That was in reaction to what happened up in New York and at Austin and other areas. That is helpful, but we don't see that normally. So the procurement systems, obviously, have to be fixed. We also, we built this whole system back in the sixties. If you think about the technology that was available then compared to now, we have too many facilities out there. With modern telecommunications, we can be able to look at it, and look at it smartly, develop a process, over time, as you called for in your bill last year, and work with our controller workforce to say, "Okay, over time, through attrition, accessions, everything else, let's have you live where it's affordable to live, and put these facilities where they work together and have resiliency."

(35:42)
But we need to all work together to be able to come up with a plan and, right now, the FAA is somewhat paralyzed, because they always tell us that they can't come forward with a plan, because even if they want to bring down one system, an old system that is no longer … NDBs or things like that, that someone will get upset at them. So it's been very frustrating for all of us that have said we want to work to be able to do what you, the Congress, told the FAA to do, and we can't get them to move forward. So we have to collectively support you, in the leadership that you all can provide, to be able to go and tell you how to right-size these facilities.

(36:24)
And we also have to get rid of this craziness of trying to shut down the FAA or have portions of the FAA shut down if we have a government shut down. We obviously have our controllers that are forced to work, but without pay. But if we look at this, people don't realize that when the FAA starts to prepare for a shutdown, it causes perturbations to the whole system in their preparation, which they're already starting to do in the case that we will shut down next week, and then it takes weeks, and sometimes months, even to reconstitute.

(36:55)
So there's multiple things that we want in industry to work together and help this committee, but we surely hope that it is this committee that leads the way, talks to your colleagues, both on the appropriation side, but also over in the Senate, and put smart ways where we can use the trust fund. We have examples, out there, of the Harbor Maintenance Fund, and other ways that we can do smart multi-year programs to be able to start to fix this. So we look forward to working closely with you.

Chairman Nehls (37:27):

Thank you, Mr. Bunce, Mr. Daniels, you're recognized.

Mr. Daniels (37:30):

Good morning Chairman Nehls, Ranking Member Cohen, Chairman Graves, Ranking Member Larsen, and other members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you on this important subject. My name is Nick Daniels and I am the president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, name is NATCA. And I'm a proud air traffic controller, for the last 21 years, as a civilian air traffic controller. 19 years at Fort Worth Texas Air Route Traffic Control Center, and two years at Dallas Addison Tower. I also proudly served as a sergeant in the United States Marine Corps, with five years as a tower and radar air traffic controller.

(38:03)
I want to start by saying that NATCA grieves for the families, friends, and communities that were devastated by the aviation accident on January 29th at Washington National Airport. We remain steadfast in our commitment to work with all federal agencies investigating that accident. NATCA takes pride in our role as the aviation safety organization that stands shoulder to shoulder with Congress, the executive branch, the industry stakeholders to ensure that the National Airspace system remains the safest and the most efficient in the world. We always seek to be part of the solution and look forward to working with Congress and the administration to address the challenges we face today and in the future.

(38:44)
NATCA's subject matter experts play a critical role in safety, training and modernization of the National Airspace System. It is essential that NATCA is able to collaborate with Secretary Duffy, Acting FAA Administrator Rocheleau, members of Congress, along with the industry stakeholders, on this pivotal subject. The 10,800 dedicated American air traffic controllers, though 3,600 short of what's needed, along with other aviation safety professionals that we represent throughout the FAA, Department of Defense and Federal Contract Tower Program are vital to the United States economy.

(39:22)
We ensure the safe and efficient movement of millions of passengers and tons of cargo through our dynamic airspace each day. We would like to thank this committee for passing the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024 with overwhelming bipartisan support. The law includes many critical provisions on hiring, training and staffing, including maximum hiring for air traffic controllers for the duration of the bill. The foundation of the air traffic control system is the hard-working men and women. The National Airspace System requires a sufficient number of fully certified air traffic controllers to meet the FAA's operational statutory and contractual requirements. This includes modernizing procedures, equipment and facilities, and integrating the next wave of aviation users through unmanned aerial vehicles and more. We are concerned that these staffing and training advances could be disrupted by a government shutdown later this month. Several years ago, when the government shut down for 35 days, the FAA was required to close its training academy and missed its original hiring target by over 500 trainees. Government shutdowns also disrupt or halt the modernization programs, which can take months to restart. Congress has consistently provided the FAA with the resources it requests through the authorization of top-line numbers and the annual appropriations process.

(40:43)
However, the FAA has historically requested too little funding, and we now have a significant backlog of system and facility sustainment and replacement. Many FAA facilities have exceeded their expected life cycles. When a major system fails, it can lead to air traffic delays. The United States and the American people deserve the best facilities and equipment, so we can provide the safest travel possible. As an example, the FAA's 21 air route traffic control centers were built in the 1960s. Fort Worth, Seattle, Kansas City, Memphis, and Indianapolis to name a few. They're between 59 and 64 years old. The tower and radar facilities also require attention. The average FAA-operated tower is 36 years old.

(41:29)
To sustain many of these legacy systems, as well as to enhance and deploy critical safety and modernization programs, the FAA projects it will need $6 billion, annually, for its facilities and equipment account. To be clear, we have experienced success. Last year, the agency and NATCA were able to fast-track the deployment of the Surface Awareness Initiative, a tool that will help controllers mitigate the risks of wrong surface landings and runway incursions. Now, we need to deploy it to other air traffic facilities. NATCA's continued involvement as a productive and collaborative partner will ensure that the FAA continues to deliver on these initiatives to industry stakeholders, and to flying the public on time, and it cost savings to the American taxpayers. Recently, Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy, stated he wanted to ensure that only the best and brightest serve as air traffic controllers. NATCA wholeheartedly agrees, and is committing to working with Congress and the administration to incentivize the recruitment and training of the next generation of air traffic controllers. I look forward to your questions.

Chairman Nehls (42:34):

Thank you, Mr. Daniels. Mr. Spero, you're recognized.

Mr. Spero (42:38):

Chairman Nehls, Ranking Member Cohen, Committee Chair Graves, Ranking Member Larsen and subcommittee members, thank you for inviting me to testify on behalf of PASS. My name is Dave Spero. I'm the president of the Professional Aviation Safety Specialists. PASS represents approximately 11,000 FAA and DOD employees throughout the United States and abroad. Among these employees are airway transportation system specialists and aviation safety inspectors. PASS members work to ensure the safety and efficiency of the nation's aviation system.

(43:12)
Before I talk about the critical work they do, I must address the turmoil being directed towards the federal workforce. PASS is concerned by the confusing messages from the administration regarding deferred resignations, terminating probationary employees without cause, and efforts to purge the federal workforce. Military veterans have been fired, as have employees, who have spent years with a contractor doing the same work before being recruited by the FAA. PASS believes all these employees support the safe operation of the National Aerospace System. Haphazardly eliminating positions and encouraging resignations are having a demoralizing effect on the workforce. They're a distraction for employees performing safety-critical duties. All parts of this aviation ecosystem work together to accomplish a critical goal, the safety of the American flying public. The chain provided by these safety-focused professionals must remain strong and every link intact. PASS represents the Air Traffic Organization Technical Operations unit. FAA airway transportation systems specialists within TechOps ensure the functionality of the communicate to safe air travel, and the mission of pilots and controllers. They touch nearly technology in the air traffic control system. We cannot turn on the lights without them.

(44:35)
Adequate safety and comprehensive training are critical. Insufficient staffing not only leads to prolonged restoration times and increased flight delays during outages, but also poses challenges in ensuring adequate shift coverage as ours is a 24/7 workforce. It creates unnecessary stress on air traffic controllers when alternative procedures are required due to an equipment malfunction, if a trained specialist is unavailable for restoration. PASS has consistently emphasized the need for sufficient staffing and underscored the initial absence and now the slow progress of a reliable staffing model to guide decisions in placements.

(45:15)
The development of the TechOps Staffing model, over the course of a decade, has revealed a significant shortfall of at least 800 employees. While PASS does not agree that the model is factoring in all of the necessary data to determine the optimum number of system specialists, it nonetheless reveals an understaffed workforce. Furthermore, system specialists are confronted with the daunting task of managing aging systems that formed the backbone of the NAS. The result of the 2024 PASS survey underscored key concerns shared by employees nationwide. These concerns include the challenges posed by obsolete equipment, cumbersome procedures, unreliable parts, system complexity, and again inadequacies in workforce staffing and training.

(46:04)
One major hurdle faced by systems specialists is the need for a broader vision within the FAA regarding the modernization of the air traffic control systems. PASS has long stated that the obvious solution to concerns with reliability and operational continuity is expediting the systems into the NAS. PASS strongly believes this workforce has the expertise and capability to assist. They are committed to the mission and able to accomplish the work if given the proper resources and staffing.

(46:36)
Of utmost importance, FAA employees who perform vital aviation safety work must remain federal employees. This is critical for a safe and efficient NAS. It is unfathomable, even dangerous, to consider gambling with the future and safety of our air traffic control system through privatization. PASS respectfully calls on this committee to consider our areas of concern and recognize the critical contributions made by the employees we represent. We are ready to work with you to ensure the United States air traffic control system remains the safest in the world, and I'm happy to answer your questions.

Chairman Nehls (47:14):

Thank you, Mr. Spero. Mr. Rinaldi, you're recognized.

Mr. Rinaldi (47:18):

Good morning, Chairman Nehls, Ranking Member Cohen, Chairman Graves, Ranking Member Larsen, members of the committee. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. I spent 30 years in the FAA, 15 as a frontline controller at Washington Dulles Tower and Radar, 15 years in the leadership of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, including 12 as president. After reaching mandatory retirement, I founded a consulting firm to continue to provide expertise in air traffic control and support the enhancement of the National Airspace System.

(47:50)
During my time as NATCA leadership, I had the opportunity to testify many times before this committee and other House and Senate committees. In 2015, '16, '17, and '18, I testified in front of this committee and I said the status quo of the National Airspace System is unacceptable. In 2016, my testimony read, "We currently run the largest, safest, most efficient, most complex, most diverse airspace system in the world. The United States Airspace System is considered the gold standard in aviation industry around the world, and yet we've come to a reality that we need to change. Globalization, innovation, and drive in dramatic changes in aviation industry, our current structure cannot keep up. The status quo is unacceptable. Let's not wait for the unthinkable to happen for us to act." That was in 2016.

(48:42)
Here, unfortunately, in 2025, the United States Airspace System is no longer considered the gold standard around the world. Several critical issues contribute to this. Our aging infrastructure, our outdated technology, our staffing shortage, a broken hiring and training process. These things have been concerns for decades. Since the start of fiscal year 2018, the FAA has experienced three shutdowns and 29 additional threats of shutdowns with another one on the horizon next week. Decades of shutdowns and funding uncertainty has left our system antiquated. A GAO report in 2024 reported 58 critical systems within the National Airspace System are either unsustainable or potentially unsustainable and posing risks to the airspace. This stems from the FAA's acquisition … the broken acquisition management system.

(49:40)
Our procurement system in the FAA is laden with bureaucratic layers that adds years to modernization projects. Controllers and technicians are working with the best 1980s and nineties technology, from paper strips to floppy disks, out-of-service ground radars and broken communication systems. Right now, our specialists are supporting outdated equipment when the equipment should be supporting them. One glaring example of this is the Notice to Airmen system. Two years ago, NOTAMS outage shut down the whole National Airspace System. Despite Congress expediting money and demanding a new program, today, 26 months later, the FAA still has not awarded the contract for a new NOTAM system.

(50:26)
During my 35 years in aviation, the FAA has always been short air traffic controllers. To change that, we need to have multiple paths of hiring controllers. Obviously, Oklahoma City is the academy. An enhanced College Training Initiative that was started last year needs to be robust. Direct hiring from the military. Direct hiring from the federal contract tower programs. We need to change the skills assessment test to really capture the aptitude needed to be a successful controller in the academy. This will save a lot of money. We must change the way we train controllers, and use advanced tools for grading sessions, and remove the subjectivity from grading.

(51:09)
We've been watching our system in a downward spiral for two decades. Tragically, on January 29th, the unthinkable did happen, a midair collision at Washington National Airport over the Potomac River between a Black Hawk helicopter and a regional jet landing on runway 33. Sadly, 67 people lost their lives, including three service members. As someone who spends an awful lot of time in ice rinks in Northern Virginia, I've had the opportunity to see the memorials in each rink. These young figure skaters, the coaches, the family members, it's absolutely heartbreaking. They will never be able to be on the podium and receive the gold medal again.

(51:48)
We've had several warnings at Washington National Airport. This did not have to happen. Aviation safety is a journey, not a destination. We must beat back the complacency in our system every day, and not rest on good enough when we have lives at stake. In closing, we are not the gold standard in aviation anymore. We are not even on the world's podium. We have the best airlines, best pilots, best controllers, best safety professionals. I urge this committee to take necessary steps, whether it's through policy, funding, regulation support to ensure that this nation regains the gold in a world aviation arena. Thank you for your time.

Chairman Nehls (52:33):

Thank you all for your testimony. We will now turn to questions from the panel. I now recognize the Ranking Member, Mr. Cohen, for five minutes.

Mr. Cohen (52:41):

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate the witness's testimonies and, I didn't mention earlier, I appreciate the visitors we have today. I'm sorry about the circumstances. That is terrible. Thank you for being here. Mr. Spero and Mr. Daniels, either of you, we know the Trump Administration fired a significant number of NATCA and past members, including those responsible for maintaining critical air traffic control equipment. How have these mass firings affected system maintenance, equipment reliability, and overall air safety, and has the FAA made any meaningful effort to re-hire or replace those skilled workers? Mr. Spero.

Mr. Spero (53:18):

Congressman Cohen, thank you for the question. Let me jump in here and say no. As far as we know, only about three employees of the 132 that we represent, that were terminated, have been restored. With regard to the rest of them, I'm not aware of any efforts, whatsoever, to bring any of them back.

Mr. Cohen (53:38):

And why were those three brought back?

Mr. Spero (53:40):

They were instrument legal examiners at their registry in Oklahoma City, and I believe, based on the number of them that were removed and their skill set they brought to the table, it was going to start to cause a backlog there when it comes to pilot, when it comes to aircraft registration.

Mr. Cohen (53:55):

Thank you, sir. Mr. Daniels.

Mr. Daniels (53:57):

Ranking Member Cohen, thank you for the question. For air traffic controllers, there were no air traffic controllers removed in those firings, but we do have other aviation safety professionals that we represent and we believe them to all be essential. We continue to evaluate the impacts to safety and we will make sure that we raise them through this committee as appropriate, as they're identified.

Mr. Cohen (54:15):

And do you find that the PASS members that were fired are also essential for the FAA and for the air traffic controllers?

Mr. Daniels (54:22):

The air traffic controllers absolutely rely on any person that supports the system day in and day out.

Mr. Cohen (54:27):

Thank you, sir. Mr. Spero, another question. We've seen calls to privatize aspects of the FAA and suggestions that Elon Musk, or someone like him, not that there's anybody like him, he's so grand and amazing and powerful and brilliant and rich, should have influence over the agency's operations. Does PASS support privatization of the air traffic control system or should we instead focus on fully implementing the reforms in the 2024 FAA Reauthorization law?

Mr. Spero (54:53):

Thank you for the question, Congressman. So the problems, right now, are predictable funding, long-term planning, faster deployment. Those are the issues that need to be addressed. Privatization is not a solution to those problems. Better funding, finding ways to expedite systems in the field, making sure that we can plan, long-term, not have government shutdowns, those are the solutions to the problems, not privatization.

Mr. Cohen (55:18):

Thank you, sir. Mr. Daniels, let me ask you, Ms. Krause, Elon Musk's Starlink has been proposed as a solution for improving aviation communications, suggested by him and some people that Virginia [inaudible 00:55:34], and internet access for aircraft, potentially overriding an existing contract with Verizon. In your experience, does the FAA have strategies to evaluate and regulate the use of systems, like Starlink, for critical air traffic controls, communications, and what safeguards must be in place to ensure reliability and cybersecurity?

Ms. Krause (55:54):

I'm aware of the discussions around that issue. We haven't looked, specifically, at that question that you're raising.

Mr. Cohen (55:59):

Does anybody else have a thought about that? Verizon's contract? Mr. Daniels.

Mr. Daniels (56:06):

Regardless of who's awarded the contract, NATCA stands in the firm support of remaining involved in any productive or being a collaborative partner in developing and testing and implementing any new technologies, ensuring that they meet the safety standards that are set, the security standards are set, but anyone who awards the contract, that would be a question for the FAA and DOT.

Mr. Bunce (56:27):

Mr. Cohen, several of us serve on the NextGen Advisory Committee and we were briefed about a month and a half ago. Just with the old voice switch that has to be replaced, there was a replacement plan, it had to be accelerated, because of the obsolescence, and so the telcos are charging the FAA quite a bit of money, which is a further drain from their accounts, to be able to maintain this antiquated system. The telecommunications backbone of this is not only fiber optic, but it's also got to be SATCOM and everything. So, again, I think if we have the mechanism, out there, where we fairly compete these contracts, we've got to do something to reinforce that backbone.

Mr. Cohen (57:05):

Thank you. Mr. Daniels and Mr. Spero, you each represent employees who were fired. Have any of the folks in your unions told you that they had contact with the Musk's DOGE team, and that they thought they acted professionally or knew what the hell they were doing?

Mr. Daniels (57:21):

Congressman, thank you again for the question. No, none of our members that were removed in the probationary status-

Mr. Cohen (57:27):

No, but anybody, did they have … so they weren't even … they weren't asked about, do you need these people? Do you need this? Do you need X?

Mr. Daniels (57:32):

We are not aware that there was any contact with any of those probationary employees.

Mr. Cohen (57:36):

Thank you. Mr. Spero.

Mr. Spero (57:37):

Congressman, no. On Valentine's Day, at 11:30, people were getting emails saying they were terminated without any notice, without any cause. No discussions with us with regard to who was essential, who wasn't needed, who was unnecessary, nothing.

Mr. Cohen (57:54):

Valentine's Day. The lady in red, was she in Oklahoma City, too?

Mr. Spero (57:57):

I believe so, sir.

Mr. Cohen (57:59):

Thank you, sir. I yield back.

Chairman Nehls (58:00):

Gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr. Larsen for five minutes. Go ahead.

Mr. Larsen (58:08):

Thank you, Mr. Chair. [inaudible 00:58:11] surprises, because I … this happened last week too. I was given a chance to cut in line. I didn't ask, so I wonder if something's up, but thank you very much, Chairman Nehls. First for Ms. Krause. So the Reauthorization law directs the FAA to accelerate the replacement or enhancement in going through of outdated systems. Did you set a priority in your analysis of which systems might be best? I know there's sustainable and not sustainable and so on, but even within that mix, is there a top five list that you think that has to get done for whatever reason?

Ms. Krause (58:50):

Look, the information we have is based on the 2023 Operational Risk Assessment that FAA was doing. I think they were in the process of updating that this year. I think it would be good to get updated information on where things are at, and what plans and investments are in place when it comes to some of those unsustainable systems. That's why we recommended, in our report, that it's important. The provision and the law is good, and to take another closer look at the legacy systems, but to get information to the Congress sooner about what systems are unsustainable and what are the steps they're taking to mitigate those risks.

Mr. Larsen (59:26):

I am trying to hit home partly the idea that there is a to-do list. Systems have been identified, there is a to-do list, we just got to get it done.

Ms. Krause (59:41):

They do have systems that have investments associated with them in terms of … but we did find some areas where they … four other programs did not, that were critical to safety and efficiency, did not yet have modernization programs or investments identified. So, again, that's why it's really important that FAA use that Operational Risk Assessment to help inform Congress of how risks are being mitigated with those systems.

Mr. Larsen (01:00:04):

Right. Right. Ms. Spero, I have a very … all analogies are imperfect. This one's kind of imperfect. But I'm thinking of a construction company that gets a contract, and they're resurfacing a bit of the road. And they have safety flaggers on each end to be sure that this is … work environment is done safely, the work is done safely. So what if we just focused on that safety-critical mission, and all we had was flaggers to keep things safe, but the folks who are doing the construction aren't necessary, because it's not related to the safety mission.

(01:00:34)
It doesn't make a lot of sense to do that. You need everybody there. My analogy, then, is this idea of what happened to, I think they're called the program assistants or the PASS members who are in support of those who are in direct safety missions, but those folks can't do their safety mission without the work of these program assistants. Ia that … again, an imperfect analogy, but some of these folks are probationary and got fired and now there's no one to do that program assisting job to support the safety mission. So someone's got to do it, presumably the people who are supposed to do the safety mission.

Mr. Spero (01:01:10):

That's correct, sir. I appreciate the question. So there's an old saying that the job isn't done until the paperwork is finished. Sort of how this works. Everybody has a role to play to make sure that our front-line workers can do the work they need to. The aviation safety inspectors, airway transportation systems specialists, those are the folks that are right there touching the National Airspace System. But everything they do is supported by management, program assistants, by maintenance mechanics. We have our nautical information specialists who create charts and maps, identify obstacles, they've been terminated, without cause, with many years of experience. So there are seven or eight different job series of folks who do work that now

Mr. Spero (01:02:00):

Now these frontline workers have to stop doing what they're doing on the front line and do that work where that hole has been left.

Mr. Larsen (01:02:10):

So the effort here has been to fire people but not necessarily get rid of the work that had to get done anyway?

Mr. Spero (01:02:16):

That's correct. No assessment had been done to make a determination as to how this impacted aviation safety and what we've done without actually noticing it is baked risk into the system. Now we have effectively down staffed that aviation safety inspector workforce, that airway transportation specialist workforce by causing them to go and have to do other things.

Mr. Larsen (01:02:42):

Thank you. Mr. Daniels, in the brief time I have left, you mentioned but could you just underline what will happen if there's a government shutdown specifically with your workforce?

Mr. Daniels (01:02:53):

We would have a shutdown of the Oklahoma City Academy. Air traffic controllers wouldn't be paid. Programs in modernization would halt, would take months to restart, and we would likely lose anywhere between a hundred to upwards of 500 trainees throughout that given period that it was the shutdown.

Mr. Larsen (01:03:11):

Thank you. I yield back.

Mr. Barrett (01:03:15):

Thank you, Ranking Member. I now recognize, Mr. Massie.

Mr. Massie (01:03:20):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to direct everybody's attention to a video that we're going to play here and we're just going to play about 10 or 15 seconds of this. That's enough. You can pause it. So Mr. Daniels, you were an air traffic controller at one point, is that correct?

Mr. Daniels (01:03:49):

Yes, sir. 26 years.

Mr. Massie (01:03:50):

So can you tell me what we're looking at there on the screen?

Mr. Daniels (01:03:54):

You're looking at a display of a visual tower. We call it the stars scope. It's what they're referencing for traffic in and around the area.

Mr. Massie (01:04:05):

My constituents are always shocked when I tell them this is what air traffic controllers use in 2025 to monitor air traffic near airports. What is the age of this system? Does anybody know when these kind of scopes first came out?

Mr. Daniels (01:04:20):

I do have a… And again, thank you for the question. I do have a unique background. In 1999 in the United States Marine Corps I helped test that system when it was first rolling out, so it's been around since them in early testing.

Mr. Massie (01:04:33):

So we're looking at a display that's… It looks like it's 40 years old but maybe it's 25 years old or a quarter of a century and I know there's a desire not to complicate the screen, not to put too much information on there for air traffic controllers to distract them, and I know they're probably extremely proficient at using this information at deconflicting air traffic, but anybody who looks at this screen and wonders, "How is this 2025 and this is the state of the art for air traffic control in the United States of America?" is really perplexed in my mind or in my experience. Ms. Krause, can you talk about these legacy systems and when is the last time they've been updated substantially from this?

Ms. Krause (01:05:30):

Yeah, as we point out in our report and in my statement, there's about a third of the systems that are deemed unsustainable. So that means that they have challenges with finding spare parts, expertise, retirement of technicians that can help maintain these systems as well as some funding… Could run into funding issues as well. I think whenever you're looking at modernization, you have to assess a couple of different areas like whether a system needs modernizing, what are the costs, what are the risks, what's the criticality, what's the system performance. And so certainly we are seeing an aging ATC system and a need to make sure FAA is addressing those unsustainable systems.

Mr. Massie (01:06:17):

When we unfortunately have to go back and review video and audio from situations that happen like this recent crash, it seems like the audio is sometimes just barely intelligible when we get to listen to it. Is this the case? I mean why is there static? Why is it hard to understand the communications between air traffic control and the plane sometimes? Is that an artifact of the recording device or is that actually what they're hearing when they're talking to each other? Anybody? Feel free to answer that.

Mr. Daniels (01:06:53):

Congressman, I'll start out by saying again, thank you for the question. Quite often it is as garbled as you hear. Multiple aircraft on multiple frequencies. We continue to work with any persons or any contractors to improve it, but there are many occasions where we use standardized phraseology for those very moments. We know what the pilot's going to say, they know and expect what to hear back, so that way we reduce those communications and even when it may sound garbled to somebody else, they know and understand our instructions. And if they don't, we ensure that we take the opportunity and time, we do what's called hear back, read back, we tell it to them, they have to tell it to us, and we make sure it's exact in matches.

Mr. Massie (01:07:30):

In the recent collision at DCA, there was some question as to whether that the helicopter actually heard one of the last instructions to it when we replayed it. What can we do to improve? Anybody here who wants to… Ms. Krause, is there anything that you know we could do to improve the audio between communications?

Ms. Krause (01:07:51):

I mean part of the next-gen effort is to implement data communications improvement, so again, to provide texts like communications between pilots and the controllers, but there may be some other folks that have thoughts on that question as well.

Mr. Bunce (01:08:05):

Congressman Massie, when we fly, to have this digital capability is a true force enhancer because the number of misreads out there is truly significant, the controllers are talking on multiple frequencies sometimes just directly to you, but then they're broadcasting what is the ride at this altitude, but also very specific information. When we get this through the data communications, it's amazing how quiet it gets up at the flight levels and we're just now starting to exploit that capability. It really is a great enhancer for the great work that our controllers do and with the amount of traffic that we see soon to be in the system, we're going to need more and more of that capability.

Mr. Massie (01:08:50):

Thank you, Mr. Bunce. I yield back.

Mr. Barrett (01:08:52):

Thank you, sir. I now recognized Scholten.

Ms. Scholten (01:08:56):

Thank you, Mr. Barrett, and thank you to our Chairman and Ranking Member for holding this really important hearing today. Welcome to our esteemed panelists. We thank you as well for your witness and testimony here today as well as the work that you do when you're not before us. It has been a challenging time for aviation. I was talking with constituents back home and we said, "This was not supposed to be an aviation year," but it is because we are at a moment of true crisis that is costing lives and it is essential that we respond in kind. Recent tragic air traffic collisions as well as DOGE's senseless mass layoffs of aviation professionals have stoked uncertainty and fear in the industry and in the American public.

(01:09:50)
However, I am proud to be a part of a committee that is so dedicated to working in a bipartisan fashion to keep our skies safe. That is why we worked so hard on the FAA Reauthorization of 2024 and I encourage the Department of Transportation to swiftly implement the legislation to ensure that it remains safer today to fly than ever before in American history. Before I jump into my questions, I just want to confirm my understanding here. Mr. Daniels, can you please clarify who currently represents the nation's air traffic controllers?

Mr. Daniels (01:10:29):

Good morning, Congresswoman, and I do. I am a 26-year veteran of air traffic control and I am the elected National Air Traffic Controllers Association President.

Ms. Scholten (01:10:37):

And you speak on behalf of them here today?

Mr. Daniels (01:10:39):

I do.

Ms. Scholten (01:10:40):

Okay, thank you. The FAA owned and operated air traffic control tower at GRR in my district, like many across the country, is in desperate need of modernization and relocation. At 60 years old, this air traffic control tower is one of the oldest among the top 75 busiest airports, nearly 20 years older than the majority of air traffic control towers. However, the FAA has not provided GRR with any sense of when it will invest in this ATC despite the airport having completed designs for its future tower and despite consistently being told that we are number two on the priority list. Mr. Calio, with the FAA having approximately $5.2 billion in a sustainment backlog for aviation facilities and systems, can you please speak to how greater congressional investment in the FAA's facility and equipment account would maintain and modernize ATC throughout the US to keep our aviation professionals and air travelers safe? That was you.

Mr. Calio (01:11:51):

Sorry about that. There's a variety of ways. First of all, we talked a little earlier about in 1995, Congress gave the FAA procurement authority. It's rarely been exercised or at least we believe exercised appropriately. And what we have to do is use this time to galvanize all of us to stop talking about the things we've been talking about, at least in my experience for almost 15 years. We've talked about them over and over again. I think the trick here is to figure out what everyone can do together. Everybody at this table has come together representing an awful lot of the aviation industry. We all have our differences. We came together and provided this committee with a letter of recommendations that could be done. Those need to be looked at carefully, followed, and implemented. And that takes a little pressure on the FAA. It takes looking at new ways of doing things.

(01:12:45)
I recounted earlier, Congresswoman, that when I first came here to testify 14 years ago after three days on my current job, I said we were an inflection point and I came with a stack of GAO studies and Inspector General report studies that have been written for years all saying the same thing over and over again.

Ms. Scholten (01:13:05):

Modernizing our aviation infrastructure and addressing the industry's workforce shortage are intricately linked. We have to upgrade our aging system to equip our highly skilled aviation workforce with the tools they need to do their jobs well. Unfortunately, the ability of technical professionals to repair our aviation infrastructure and staff to these towers is very limited. Mr. Daniels, with a looming government shutdown in just 10 days, how would the administration and majority's potential failure to act put further strain on our air traffic controllers?

Mr. Daniels (01:13:43):

Congresswoman, thank you again for the question. It will sever the artery, which is the pipeline of air traffic controllers in the system by shutting down the Oklahoma City Academy. Not only that, you then have air traffic controllers that deal with the stresses and pressures every day of this system making thousands of decisions in a moment's notice, handling and caring for the sky now starting to worry about their daily paycheck. We live like every American does and a lot of times that's paycheck to paycheck and putting those stresses and pressures on that puts us in a very vulnerable position and adds risk to the system.

Ms. Scholten (01:14:13):

Yeah, I hear you. Thank you. I yield back.

Mr. Barrett (01:14:18):

Thank you. I will now recognize myself for five minutes. Appreciate the panel being here and appreciate your testimony before our committee today. Mr. Daniels, in particular, I wanted to appreciate your work and the work of your air traffic controllers and the job that you do keeping us safe. I spent time flying aircraft in the army, worked on one side of that equation, and always appreciated the air traffic controllers that kept us safe and kept us in the right direction to keep our airspace absolutely as safe as possible. I know that Mr. Massie had that graphic up on display and I don't know if we can bring up just that screenshot that we left off on or not, if that would be difficult, but you could see in there the two icons representing the two aircraft. It said CA and that was flashing on that screen. I was hoping you could give us a little bit of insight. Is that a collision alert? Is that what was being flagged for the controller at that moment?

Mr. Daniels (01:15:15):

Congressman, good morning to you. Yes, while I can't speak to specifics on the incident because we are a party to the NTSB investigation going on, that CA does stand for a conflict order.

Mr. Barrett (01:15:25):

Okay. And I fully appreciate we are not the NTSB, this is a legislative committee hearing, but as we understand that, can you walk me through a little bit about what that would look like, how frequent that is, and whether or not it is so often in your experience, not specific to this incident, but in your experience is that alert something that is so frequent that it can become cluttered for the workload for the air traffic controllers?

Mr. Daniels (01:15:55):

Thank you, Congressman. Yes, many different airports have many complexities to them. Some of them are involved in areas where that goes off consistently and continuously. Look no further than Burbank Tower. When you go out there, there is always some level of a general aviation or a final going over the top of another airport with aircraft that we're not working so they can become nuisance alerts. We do have local safety committees that evaluate those alerts, engage and find ways to ensure the safety of the flying public.

Mr. Barrett (01:16:24):

Okay, thank you. This next generation effort that is underway right now, would that lead to less…? I don't want to call them erroneous alerts, but less nuisance alerts and more actual alerts that might draw the attention of air traffic control in a more urgent fashion?

Mr. Daniels (01:16:43):

Congressman, we embrace any new technologies that bring controllers' awareness, enhances safety, and as long as we actually work with those persons creating and designing so we don't waste the taxpayer's money when bringing us a product that actually doesn't suit our needs.

Mr. Barrett (01:16:58):

Okay. Would the ADS-B full integration assist with that or not?

Mr. Daniels (01:17:05):

Congressman, as far as the technical expertise on the ADS-B portions of it, I would have to get back to you seeing what the impacts would it be in the context that you're putting it in.

Mr. Barrett (01:17:13):

Okay, thank you. And then, Mr. Spero, a question for you. Can you walk us through a little bit of the TCAS system, how that works? And I know it's cockpit to cockpit and maybe the safety track record on that and some of what that has involved.

Mr. Spero (01:17:32):

Thank you for the question, Congressman. So TCAS is not a system that our technicians maintain. That's something that the airlines handle themselves.

Mr. Barrett (01:17:40):

Okay. Does anybody on the panel have expertise with TCAS at all that can opine on that?

Mr. Bunce (01:17:46):

Well, sir, as you know, as an aviator we've got multiple systems that are out there. The TCAS though in this case it does get disinhibited or is not enabled when you get close to the ground and that's why ADS-B gives you a capability to be able to have awareness of altitude, especially… We looked at that video there. That's the two-dimensional depiction. The three-dimensional depiction is available to us as pilots in the cockpit using ADS-B when we get down closer to the ground. Now that means that everybody's got to have ADS-B operational and using it, but it's an enhancer that also helps Mr. Daniels' community to be able to go in and help with the deconfliction.

Mr. Barrett (01:18:32):

Sure, and I know that the TCAS is… The audio tone is disabled below a certain altitude, but I believe it's below 500 feet generally. Is that your experience?

Mr. Bunce (01:18:43):

Yes, sir.

Mr. Barrett (01:18:44):

But the alert for that would come far… It's not just before impact. There's a standoff separation that would alert through TCAS prior… If you were approaching 500 feet, the audio tone and the alerts would've come prior to that threshold in all probability, correct?

Mr. Bunce (01:19:04):

Yes, sir. And it gives you commands to be able to go and do the actual maneuver of the aircraft, the deconflit.

Mr. Barrett (01:19:11):

Okay. My last question… Kind of short on time. For any of you on the panel, this next generation air transportation system, I know it's heavily reliant upon GPS. We have fewer and fewer ground-based VORs that are operational right now. Is there any concern that as we migrate away from the radio-based ground systems, that we are putting all of our eggs in a GPS basket that could open a vulnerability that we would not have a backup system for that purpose?

Mr. Spero (01:19:41):

Congressman, let me jump in. I think resiliency is very important. There's a lot of issues with GPS now and you hear about spoofing and other aspects. It's very important that the FAA maintain a resilient system with ground-based technology.

Mr. Barrett (01:19:58):

Do you know how many briefly are percentage-wise no longer operational ground-based radio signal VORs?

Mr. Spero (01:20:05):

So there was a VOR… They called it the VOR Mon program a few years ago that they began to phase out a number of them. It was done in a risk-based process, but probably half of them have been eliminated around the country. We could get you the numbers though.

Mr. Barrett (01:20:22):

Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Thank you. Now recognize Mr. Johnson.

Mr. Johnson Jr. (01:20:27):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Right now the American public is understandably concerned. Passengers, pilots, flight attendants, and air traffic controllers are feeling the weight of uncertainty, wondering if the systems in place to protect them are as strong as they need to be. The recent incidents we've seen are not just unlucky mistakes. They are warning signs of a system under strain. Outdated technologies, overworked and understaffed air traffic controllers, and years of under investment have put unnecessary risks into our aviation system. That's why this committee came together and Republicans and Democrats alike passed the 2024 Federal Aviation Administration Reauthorization Law. We don't always agree, but on this we did. We all understood that hiring more air traffic controllers, updating old staffing models, and improving air traffic control technology were not optional. They were necessary steps to keep our skies safe. Despite this clear bipartisan mandate, our aviation industry is seeing delays in action and now even cuts to the very workforce we fought to strengthen.

(01:21:48)
I'm stunned that co-presidents Musk and Trump are firing over 500 FAA employees, including those maintaining radar systems and landing equipment when aviation safety is already at risk and Americans are deeply troubled and concerned about how our aviation safety is being compromised by co-president Elon Musk's glaring conflict of interest as he tries to coerce the FAA into canceling the contract with Verizon and awarding without competitive bidding the contract to overhaul the communications system that is the backbone of this nation's air traffic control system to one of his own companies. In other words, after firing essential and experienced FAA employees, the folks who are left at FAA are being leaned on to replace Verizon, which won the contract, and award the $2.4 billion contract for the air traffic control system to the man who's threatening to fire them. This kind of corruption and cronyism is breathtaking and it's a threat to the safety of the public.

(01:23:08)
This is not making our aviation industry safer or better. It's jeopardizing public safety and our ability to track and manage air traffic safely. What troubles me even more is the silence from my colleagues across the aisle who helped pass this FAA bill. Where is the accountability and where is the urgency. Mr. Spero, stress is never helpful, especially in high-stakes professions. The FAA's air traffic organization, which provides air traffic control services across the United States, is undeniably one of the most stressful jobs in the world. There's absolutely no reason the government or Elon Musk should add unnecessary challenges to this already high-pressure profession. Yet we are witnessing actions that can only be interpreted as attacks on these essential workers, actions that directly undermine their ability to perform their duties. Mr. Spero, do you believe that these actions significantly increase the stress on air traffic controllers in an already demanding job?

Mr. Spero (01:24:29):

So thank you for the question, Congressman. I can't speak to the controllers. I can speak to our workforce though, and I'm sure Nick will jump in here on controllers, but the amount of constant stress and questions that are coming every week and the accusations and the negative comments about federal employees are causing folks to regularly now wonder if they're going to have a job tomorrow. And as they begin to pull people out of their positions and we all have to take on more responsibilities every single day, folks wonder how this is going to play out. It does cause them stress. And I will-

Mr. Johnson Jr. (01:25:12):

Let me ask Mr. Daniels to answer that question also. Mr. Daniels.

Mr. Daniels (01:25:16):

Yes, Congressman, good morning. Thank you for the question. Air traffic controllers deal and have to manage with stress day in and day out. Anything that adds to that, any uncertainty is what brings an added risk that has to be evaluated into the system. NACA remains absolutely committed to working on any and all new technologies as long as we are part of that process, a collaborative partner in it, and not only in the implementing of it, but also the testing and the development and we want to ensure the safe standards and the security of it.

Mr. Johnson Jr. (01:25:44):

And that happened with Verizon, but it has not happened with Elon Musk, has it?

Mr. Daniels (01:25:49):

The FAA and the DOT award the contracts. NACA is not involved in who does this.

Mr. Johnson Jr. (01:25:53):

Well, I mean if you're leaning on somebody to award you the contract and you're threatening them with termination, they award the contract to save their own jobs and then put the American people at risk. With that, I yield back.

Mr. Wied (01:26:13):

Thank you. The gentleman yields back and I recognize Mr. Burchett for five minutes for questions.

Mr. Burchett (01:26:18):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm not a pilot, nor do I ever aspire to be, but I would say for the record that my mom actually flew an airplane during the Second World War. I'm very proud of her. She was an incredible lady and if she were to walk in right now, I would probably think I was in trouble for something, which I probably would've been. But anyway, I know we have 17 critical air traffic control systems that are classified as unsustainable and we've got a timeline for replacement somewhere between six to 13 years. And what is the FAA doing to prioritize and mitigate the risks during that period of time? We can just go down the line. Real quick. Only got five minutes and I'm not going to give a speech.

Ms. Krause (01:27:10):

Yeah, I think what you're citing is the operational risk assessment. In certain cases they have developed modernization investments for those, but there were some additional systems that needed plans.

Mr. Calio (01:27:23):

Congressman, I think the answer is not enough. We're so far behind on so many of these systems. I think the question for all of us and for this committee is based on the FAA Reauthorization bill of last year and what we now know needs to be further done, "How do we expedite it? How do we make action happen?"

Mr. Bunce (01:27:43):

Congressman, during the last administration, FAA Administrator Whitaker started to put out a plan called NASS 2040, trying to say what's the vision going to be like 15 years from now. And before it even got started, we in industry asked, "Okay, has there been a study about how many facilities we really need?" Which then would set your modernization priorities out there. And again, we don't have to do it tomorrow. We would have a logical plan. It just never got going. It just keeps getting stalled and that's why we hope that with what you told the FAA to do, working with us in industry, we can collectively come up with a plan presented to you, the Congress, and say, "Okay, can we get going and execute?"

Mr. Daniels (01:28:30):

Congressman, I'll be brief. Thank you for the question. We remain committed to working with the FAA on these priorities and I believe we align on most of them. Telecommunications being the number one, NOTAMs being the number two. Both of can take down the entire national airspace system. Our information display systems that need updated so that way we can have more heads up time talking to aircraft. And then our radar and surveillance, as you noted earlier, was the Surface Awareness Initiative or higher. Those things, if we prioritize and focus, we can make some actual progress with this committee.

Mr. Spero (01:29:04):

Congressman, thank you for the question. At this point right now, of those systems that we're talking about, the soonest implementation we would see of any of them is 2030, and many of them right now have no investment whatsoever. So we're at the moment still waiting.

Mr. Rinaldi (01:29:20):

Thank you, Congressman. 92% of the F&E budget that the FAA gets is spent on the legacy system, the antiquated system from the 1980s and 1990s.

Mr. Burchett (01:29:30):

Say that again. How much?

Mr. Rinaldi (01:29:31):

92% of their F&E budget is spent on that. 8% is spent on modernization. So given the fact that their procurement process and their acquisition management system is broken, they're not doing a lot to modernize this system at this time.

Mr. Burchett (01:29:49):

Let's start at this end and go the other way, but are the legacy systems more susceptible to cyber security threats? And I'm wondering because sometimes we find out that they're so antiquated that nobody has the ability to crack into them. It's kind of like when we got… We thought we'd get a MiG jet during the Korean War and we got one and it turned out it was just a tin tube with… Actually it was tube types and I mean it was pretty antiquated. Go ahead.

Mr. Rinaldi (01:30:16):

The legacy system is very antiquated and that's one of the main reasons why modernization is so hard because if you take a modern piece of equipment and try to bring it into the national airspace system, you have to dumb it down so it can deal with this legacy equipment. We experienced that when we put the in-route modernization project together. We actually had to make it parallel the host computer so that we can roll it across the country.

Mr. Burchett (01:30:47):

Mr. Spero?

Mr. Spero (01:30:51):

Some of the legacy systems that we're talking about out there right now are dependent… The changes are going to be dependent upon the new fiber, the new federal enterprise network system fence, and the implementation of that. That is some of the backbone that Mr. Rinaldi's talking about. That has to be interfaced, but many of these legacy systems right now, they're operational, but we can't sustain the parts for them anymore and that's the big problem.

Mr. Burchett (01:31:17):

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm out of time. Appreciate you.

Mr. Wied (01:31:20):

Thank you. The gentleman yields back and I recognize Mr. Carson for five minutes for questions.

Mr. Carson (01:31:25):

Thank you very much, Chairman. After the horrific mid-air collision at DCA and the tragic loss of loss of 67 lives, including my constituent with Asra Hussein, I believe it's past time for us to fix the problem of heavy military helicopter traffic around Washington National, which is one of the busiest runways in the country. We all know. I am relieved that there's a pause right now on military traffic, but I'm also interested in learning if you all agree that changes should be made permanently. I want our military aviators to get all the hands-on training possible, but not during the rush hour. My question is do you think permanently changing the air traffic patterns at DCA would improve safety overall or is this a one-off?

Mr. Calio (01:32:19):

Congressman, as our testimony from Airlines for America indicates, we support permanently suspending those helicopter flights around DCA with certain exceptions, and that would be physical or medical emergency and military. We also think that helicopters around other major airports that are busy should be reevaluated and looked at for permanent change.

Mr. Daniels (01:32:45):

Congressman, again, thank you for the question. It is imperative that we remember that we have safety processes in place today and we have a local safety council that deals with these critical issues not only just at DCA but across the entire national

Mr. Daniels (01:33:00):

… Place airspace system, and that is why it's imperative that the FAA and NATCA continue to work so that way, we can make that determination at the local level of what the safest approach is rather than rote mandates or anything else. Right after that accident, was that team going into effect, working together to implement change in temporary procedures because we had this process in place.

Mr. Carson (01:33:24):

Yes, sir.

Mr. Rinaldi (01:33:26):

Congressman, that area where the accident happened on January 29 is a known conflict area. It's been a known conflict area for years. The FAA should look at these known conflict areas and de-conflict them so we don't have to worry about that situation again.

Mr. Carson (01:33:49):

Thank you. Also, in terms of transitions from the military, what more should we be thinking about in terms of opportunities from military aviation and aviation maintenance expertise that could play a role in addressing the civilian aviation workforce issues that we're all facing now? And what improvements in current practices or programs could be helpful?

Mr. Daniels (01:34:17):

Congressman, I think it's going to be a continued effort of going out, as it has been stated many times over, of the involvement and engagement in not looking at just the short-term but looking at the long-term. The true change is going to come from this committee's support of long-term investments in our modernization, in the infrastructure, and the equipment that we use. Anything else will just be a band-aid that will not solve the actual issues of today.

Mr. Bunce (01:34:46):

And congressman, I would add that what you called for in last year's reauthorization also addresses those workforce issues. You have helped us push the FAA to be able to do training programs to get FAA employees familiar with new technologies that's out there, so we're able to go and do this familiarization at our companies with the technology that the manufacturers are providing to our operators and to our controllers.

(01:35:11)
And that's vital to get them familiar because technology's moving so fast, and the more that we can get the workforce to be out there with industry to know what the latest is that we're fielding, actually enhances safety in the whole system.

Mr. Daniels (01:35:26):

Congressman, one other additional add is that human element that we were just speaking about there, is recruiting the best and brightest to be able to handle those technologies along with the stress and the pressure. And we look forward to partnering with this committee and with Secretary Duffy and the FAA on recruiting and retaining those that we currently have, having to deal with all of these constant changes.

Mr. Carson (01:35:50):

Yes, sir.

Mr. Spero (01:35:51):

Congressman, thank you. I'll add to this too. I think recruitment right now is a difficult thing in the federal workforce. I don't really know anybody out there that's dying to become a federal employee right now given all the attacks that are happening on them and that's what we're hearing from our folks.

Mr. Carson (01:36:09):

Thank you all. Thank you, Chairman.

Mr. Wied (01:36:12):

Thank you. The gentleman yields back, and I recognize Chairman Nehls for five minutes for questions.

Chairman Nehls (01:36:17):

Thank you, sir. Thank you again, the panel, for being here. I've listened to most of your testimony here, Ms. Krause. You talk about the 75% of 138 systems, they're unsustainable. Mr. Calio, you talk about it is the safest mode of transportation. I agree. We need to act with urgency. Your testimony said in 2011 you testified, and we still have floppy disks still today, how many years later.

(01:36:48)
Mr. Bruce, you stated we need to do something. We have to do something now. We have to do it now. Mr. Rinaldi, you talk about the aging infrastructure and 35 years the FAA has always been short of controllers. It appears to me that these issues are all self-induced. We are our own problem. These are self-induced, and the problem I see is it seems like it takes a tragedy for us to do something. Is it going to take another tragedy for us to finally move the football forward? I personally believe we should be ashamed of ourselves for allowing this to get where it's at, to allow the technology. It's antiquated, it's old. And being the chairman of the subcommittee, we talk about, "We are the gold standard, we are the gold standard. The world is watching." But yet, when you listen to some of the testimony I've heard today, do we want the American people to know that we are aware of the issues and we are going to address it so the next time you take your family on vacation, you can feel safe and secure knowing that you're going to get to your final destination and that your government is finally working for you?

(01:38:14)
Because I don't know if I can say that today. We are the gold standard, but it just appears to me we're not acting like it. I think Mr. Rinaldi, you made it very, very clear. You made it very clear. You said, "We are not." Are we the gold standard or are we not? Mr. Daniels, we talk a little bit about… So I went down to the Oklahoma facility last week with Secretary Duffy. We visited the training facility and we were talking. And I don't know, I guess we, Congress, I found these ages are kind of arbitrary.

(01:38:50)
I don't know why we feel we need to fire an air traffic controller at 56. We just do, "Ah, 56, you're too damn old." I don't know. I'm too old to be an air traffic controller. Certainly this guy is too. I think he looks pretty healthy, doesn't he? Don't you think he would be a great air traffic controller? Nope, he's too old. Why? Because Congress says you're too old.

(01:39:11)
Congress says you just can't do it. You don't have the wherewithal to do it. I don't understand why we come up with arbitrary ages, and I think, Mr. Daniels, do you think that 56 years old, is that the number? And should that be changed, knowing how people are living today and the lifestyles we lead?

Mr. Daniels (01:39:30):

Chairman, thank you for the question. I do believe that the age 56 is the standard of where we should be. It does not solve, and moving or adjusting that does not solve the immediate staffing crisis.

Chairman Nehls (01:39:40):

Well, I would like to know how many have requested waivers. And I asked that question the other day. I want to know how many have requested waivers because I believe waivers are available for people. I would like to know how many are ATCs that we have out there, whether they're en route or in the towers that are over 56 years old.

(01:39:57)
Because me, personally, I look at what we do in Congress with airline pilots. Congress, again, in our infinite wisdom, we fire you at 65. We fire you. We say you're just too old. My goodness gracious, it might be a bad idea, maybe we should fire members of Congress at 65, say you're too old to be here. You can't perform your duties because you just don't have that skill set anymore.

(01:40:24)
Some of these ages, I think it's age discrimination in many, many ways and I don't understand why we have it, but I think if somebody would come up with some just… We just shouldn't be firing people at 56 years old if they're willing to work and they have the capability to do so and they've got that experience. I think I'm going to disagree with you, Mr. Daniels. I think that we would be able to fill the slots. How old were you? So you were in the military and you were in ATC, right? Military?

Mr. Daniels (01:40:56):

Yes, sir. That is correct.

Chairman Nehls (01:40:57):

When did you transfer into the civilian sector?

Mr. Daniels (01:41:00):

When I was 24 years old.

Chairman Nehls (01:41:01):

24. So if you were 32, you couldn't have done it.

Mr. Daniels (01:41:03):

I could have, sir, at that age 32. I could go into, I could transfer-

Chairman Nehls (01:41:07):

Well, they're saying there's an age limit at 31 years old. I'm getting bad information then.

Mr. Daniels (01:41:12):

If you have military service, sir, you can join up until age 35.

Chairman Nehls (01:41:15):

So you continue up to the age of 35. You probably didn't even have a house at 35 yet. I'm just saying I don't know why we have 31-year-old limit as well. So if you want to get to be an ATC, you've got to be under 31 years old and that's just another number dealing with federal retirement. I think it's ridiculous. With that, I yield back.

Mr. Wied (01:41:34):

Thank you. The gentleman yields back, and I recognize Ms. Brownley for five minutes for questions.

Ms. Brownley (01:41:40):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I ask for a unanimous consent to enter the following into the record of February 14th. Letter from T&I Democrats to Transportation Secretary Duffy urging the swift implementation of the 2024 FAA reauthorization law.

(01:41:59)
A letter from the Airline Pilots Association to this committee, a letter from the Association of Professional Flight Attendants to Congressional leadership, a statement from the Association of Uncrewed Vehicle Systems International, and finally, a letter from the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA to this subcommittee.

Mr. Wied (01:42:20):

Without objection.

Ms. Brownley (01:42:21):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Daniels and Mr. Spero, I'd really like to begin my comments by thanking both of you and the over 30,000 FAA employees who you represent who work hard every single day to keep our airways safe. The American people and all of us who rely on your expertise and professionalism are deeply grateful for all that you do.

(01:42:48)
We understand that these are complex jobs that take many years of training and I want to be clear that we value your hard work and your dedication to public service. So thank you for that. Ms. Krause, I wanted to ask you from your vantage point, what impacts of the administration's firing of FAA personnel having on air traffic control modernization, planning and execution?

Ms. Krause (01:43:16):

At this time, we haven't looked at the impacts of those, of the staffing changes.

Ms. Brownley (01:43:21):

Well, you have weighed in on impacts of lack of staff currently.

Ms. Krause (01:43:28):

Yeah. I think when we've looked at ATC modernization when it comes to especially some of the legacy systems and aging systems, one of the big challenges is not just spare parts, but also having those knowledgeable technicians in place to be able to maintain those systems. So that's certainly a challenge.

Ms. Brownley (01:43:46):

Thank you. Mr. Daniels, can you comment again on the FAA staff firings? What's the morale like amongst your membership?

Mr. Daniels (01:43:57):

Thank you, Congresswoman. As far as the air traffic controllers go, it is the stress and the pressures ever since the accident and the regular stresses that we go through. Now, the other aviation safety professionals that we represent are absolutely worried about what they hear of what's called risk or reductions in workforces as well as the probationary hirings. That does have them not focused on their job at hand and absolutely worried each and every day.

Ms. Brownley (01:44:23):

And Mr. Spero, can you comment as well on the morale?

Mr. Spero (01:44:26):

And thank you for your comments about our workforce. It's greatly appreciated. I certainly can. There are several job series out there. We'll talk about maintenance mechanics for a moment. The sustainment of the current National Airspace System depends partly on the physical infrastructure. A lot of these maintenance mechanics are skilled tradespeople that the FAA hires. They're not unskilled people.

(01:44:54)
They bring them in. They bring in a variety of different trades, including electrical expertise. So they're responsible for helping us restore some of these buildings and bringing them back up to the state that they need to be in until they can obviously be replaced. Because now many of them aren't there, we don't have the ability to continue on with some of these projects, along with some of the management and program assistants who are responsible for the logistics at some of these airports around the country. So slowly but surely, we're grinding to a halt on many of these projects.

Ms. Brownley (01:45:30):

Thank you. And we've heard that probationary firings primarily affected non-safety critical and less experienced staff. Is that accurate? Can you clarify on that?

Mr. Spero (01:45:44):

Happy to say. Let me talk about the aeronautical information specialist for a moment who create the charts, the maps, identify obstacles, help develop performance-based navigation procedures that air traffic controllers and aviators utilize. Those folks are very experienced.

(01:46:02)
Many of them are former controllers or pilots or have been working at this for many years as a contractor before the FAA decided to hire them and lured them over, recruited them and said, "We really want you to work here." So one day, they were contracted. The next day, they were a federal employee doing this work for many years. 19 of them were fired summarily on the 14th of February. That shows you clearly that these are qualified professionals.

Ms. Brownley (01:46:31):

Thank you for that. And it looks like my time is up and I will yield back, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Wied (01:46:36):

Thank you. The gentlelady yields back and I recognize Mr. Johnson for five minutes for questions.

Mr. Johnson (01:46:41):

I think Mr. Nehls and Mr. Calio both said it right, we really do need action, not just political discussion. We have a lot to do. It is worth noting, I think last year during FAA reauthorization, we did some good things. Clearly, DOGE has put a lot of American attention on making sure that taxpayer dollars are invested in the right things. We did some of that in FAA reauthorization. We said that we need to prioritize the replacement of federally owned towers that are more than 50 years old.

(01:47:12)
I've been in one of those towers at Sioux Falls, South Dakota, a small hub airport or rather a small airport where I fly out of every Monday morning and that tower is aged. Clearly, the men and women who work there are doing their best, but we're not really giving them the right tools. And so I am glad that we were able, together, to successfully prioritize the replacement of towers like in Sioux Falls.

(01:47:33)
Of course, the bricks and mortar are not the only infrastructure we care about. We also need truly trained and dedicated individuals, and I am told, Mr. Daniels, that it takes years to get a fully trained and certified air traffic controller. I'm told the main constraint to getting them ready to go is the field training, and that that's about 85% of their training time. What can Congress do to avoid those constraints and those choke points?

Mr. Daniels (01:48:02):

Thank you, Congressman. Appreciate the question. I'd say number one is the continuation of the recruitment and training of those individuals, not the stop-and-go ways that's been done. And again, anything that impedes that, such as a government shutdown, absolutely sets us backwards. But as far as the training goes itself, we have engaged and been working with the agency.

(01:48:22)
It's mainly going to be around simulators that reduces 27% of the training time, saving taxpayer money, saving our ability to be in the ready to go at any moment when it comes time to talking to a live aircraft. So our investment in those training simulators will be a key change-

Mr. Johnson (01:48:41):

Okay. So I want to make sure I'm tracking here, and I would tell you the two of the very best members of Congress are Frank Lewis and Stephanie Bice. I'm sorry, Frank Lucas and Stephanie Bice. And the Air Traffic Academy is in their area and they've told me that even during the best of times, so not during a government shutdown, we're not doing right by the field training. Now, you're talking about simulators. Do those simulators count for the field training as well?

Mr. Daniels (01:49:08):

They do.

Mr. Johnson (01:49:09):

Oh, good.

Mr. Daniels (01:49:09):

Once you get out of the Oklahoma City Academy, you go through training evaluation milestones. Number one is you show up and start doing bookwork, number two is you start doing simulator work. The enhancement of those simulators, and many of them are outdated or just a laptop alone, those are an impediment to our progress. And then the actual talking to live air traffic is next.

Mr. Johnson (01:49:29):

Okay. So we should do more investment in these simulators because you're telling me that will reduce the choke point?

Mr. Daniels (01:49:36):

Congressman, it's been agreed upon by the agency and NATCA that it reduces the time by 27%.

Mr. Johnson (01:49:42):

Okay. So then, Mr. Rinaldi, same general topic to you. Is it my understanding that some of these new graduates out of the academy, we immediately send them over to have them be teachers or trainers at the academy? Is my understanding right about that?

Mr. Rinaldi (01:49:56):

Say the question again, sir. I'm sorry.

Mr. Johnson (01:49:59):

Somebody had told me that we've got newly graduated folks out of the academy who then are shifted over to start being trainers at the academy rather than being out in the field.

Mr. Rinaldi (01:50:09):

I don't know anything about that. I don't think that's happening.

Mr. Johnson (01:50:11):

Gotcha. So same question that I posed to Mr. Daniels. What can Congress do to move us in the right direction?

Mr. Rinaldi (01:50:17):

Well, I think that Congress really has to hold the FAA accountable to the FAA bill that you put together last year. If you just look at, you can go through the 180-day window that they're supposed to provide reports back to you. Digital towers is one of them. They were supposed to provide a report back by November 12th.

(01:50:38)
They have not. They were supposed to provide three locations of where you were going to test digital towers live traffic. They have not. They're missing all those deadlines. If you go back to your 2018 FAA Reauthorization bill, they missed over 60% of those deadlines. You got to hold them accountable for these great bills you guys are doing up here.

Mr. Johnson (01:50:56):

Yeah. Boy, that is really well said. Mr. Calio, what are we missing here?

Mr. Calio (01:51:02):

Not much. I associate myself with the remarks of both Mr. Rinaldi and Mr. Daniels. I think one thing that I mentioned earlier, Congressman, that you can do, we need to pump up Oklahoma City. We commend Secretary Duffy for doing that. It's not going to be enough. The numbers don't add up. There is a program called the College Training Initiative. We start calling on the Biden administration to re-institute that. It was decimated in 2014 for not very good reasons.

(01:51:28)
And it was a training pipeline that helped keep the number of controllers current and could help. Again, the Biden administration ended up only certifying four schools, two of them in Oklahoma. There are many more out there like Vaughn College in New York where people can be trained locally and then put into TRACONs and towers in that area.

Mr. Johnson (01:51:49):

And Mr. Calio, I would just say, you're saying it exactly right, and as I yield back, I would note that Frank Lucas and Stephanie Bice, they would echo your comments that we have not done right by the Oklahoma City Academy and we need to do better. With that, I would yield back.

Mr. Wied (01:52:03):

Thank you. The gentleman yields back, and I recognize Ms. Foushee for five minutes for questions.

Ms. Foushee (01:52:08):

Thank you to the chair and the ranking member for holding this hearing, and thank you to the witnesses for being with us today. It has been made tragically clear that the FAA is facing a dire shortage of air traffic controllers, and it has been reported that more than 90% of US airport towers are understaffed. Despite this, the Trump administration and DOGE have fired approximately 400 probationary FAA employees, many of whom were in roles that are essential to aviation safety.

(01:52:44)
After coordinating these mass layoffs, Elon Musk recently asked retired air traffic controllers to consider returning to work. Mr. Daniels, in your experience with the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, how will these firings exacerbate the existing shortage of air traffic controllers? And additionally, can you speak to how many air traffic controllers would need to come out of retirement to meet the current need?

Mr. Daniels (01:53:18):

Thank you, Congresswoman. Appreciate the question. The solution is that long-term commitment that this committee has shown and put forward in the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024 for the hiring and training the next generation of air traffic controllers. Any person that was to be hired back, if I leave right now today to go back to my home facility of Fort Worth, Texas, I would have to completely re-go through the training process.

(01:53:40)
It is not where you stay, standard, you do it one time and then you're going to just do it again. So the rehiring of air traffic controllers will just take away from the time of those that are going to have 25-plus careers that we need to actually invest in and sustain the system going forward.

Ms. Foushee (01:53:56):

And furthermore, your testimony discusses the potential harm a government shutdown would have on air traffic controller hiring and training. If there isn't any good faith negotiation and the government ultimately ends up shutting down on March 14th, can you elaborate on the dangers such a shutdown would pose to the air traffic controller industry, specifically, and aviation safety more broadly?

Mr. Daniels (01:54:28):

Yes, Congresswoman. The air traffic controllers cannot take another hit right now of delaying this issue. That's what a government shutdown does. Not only does it impact the modernization, but it will shut down the Oklahoma City Academy that we are relying on to bring in these new air traffic controllers so we can train them.

(01:54:46)
Anything that stops that by either a day, a week or a month sets us backwards because those people have to be reset, recycled and later trained. And many of them don't come back because they suddenly do not want to work in that type of career field or go without $0 paychecks, or not even a paycheck, just go with $0 because they quit another job to try this one and they quite often move on to other areas.

Ms. Foushee (01:55:16):

Thank you for that. Mr. Chair, I yield back the balance of my time.

Mr. Wied (01:55:17):

Thank you. The gentlelady yields back and I recognize myself for five minutes for questions. I would like to extend my gratitude to our witnesses for agreeing to testify before our committee today. It has become readily apparent that the issue of our aging air traffic control system infrastructure can no longer be ignored.

(01:55:33)
As we've heard here today, many of these systems are out of date and present serious safety and operational concerns for our National Airspace System. These problems are not new and modernization efforts have consistently been plagued with delays. Mr. Calio, in your testimony you noted that the FAA failed to fully utilize congressionally enacted procurement reforms intended to improve modernization efforts. What can Congress and the federal government do to encourage full utilization of FAA procurement processes?

Mr. Calio (01:56:05):

Thank you, Congressman. A lot of it has to do with oversight. You have a great reauthorization bill from last year passed on a huge bipartisan basis. The tools are there, they need to be used. And part of what I was saying earlier is we all get together and we talk about it. We talk that we're at a crisis point, we need to have this galvanized as to figure out how we're going to move forward and actually make it happen.

(01:56:29)
I confess that I've never made that full arc from talking to getting it done because it has to happen on the ground at the FAA. And again, I think that requires oversight. Also, I think there are some immediate things that can be done. Our testimony, attached to it is the coalition letter where we provide recommendations. There's A4A's recommendation, short-term, medium-term, and long-term.

(01:56:54)
We need an emergency funding bill. We've let these problems go and linger, and I think Mr. Rinaldi pointed out that 92% of the F&E budget goes to patching these old systems together. We need to face the problem. We are at a crisis, and Congress is the only entity that can really do it, along with the administration saying we need to make a change now. We're not going to let Office of Management and Budget… We need to figure out, we need to do this as an investment, not only for people but for our economy.

Mr. Wied (01:57:27):

Thank you. Mr. Bunce, you elaborate on how funding that has previously been used for the modernization of existing infrastructure has failed to provide a reliable source of funding to address this aging infrastructure. Could you expand on that?

Mr. Bunce (01:57:43):

Yes, sir. If you look at the way we are not able to use the trust fund and we go year, and then we stop, and they go another year and another year. So we don't have that multi-year procurement or a capital funding that any business would do to be able to modernize. So obviously, it's something that we have to work with the appropriators. But in our conversations, and I think all of us, conversations with the appropriators, they're also very willing to work with this committee to be able to say, "Okay, is there a different way to use it?"

(01:58:16)
And we do have that example of the Harbor Maintenance Fund, but there are other mechanisms out there. If we pay into the Airport and Airways Trust Fund, but we are not able to use it to be able modernize the way we should, so if we get that emergency infusion of funding, and then couple that with being able to use the trust fund wisely, we can make some real change.

Mr. Wied (01:58:38):

Thank you. And then finally, for Mr. Daniels, what do you view as the primary cause of low staffing levels in air traffic control towers? And what can the FAA do to address this for short-term and long-term?

Mr. Daniels (01:58:51):

Thank you, Chairman, for the question. There's a few different points they got to hit here. One is the funding that we were just talking about, has to continue because that funding also continues for the actual hiring of air traffic controllers and ensuring that they have the support tools or resources.

(01:59:08)
Number two is we agree with Secretary Duffy on that we must recruit the best and the brightest. That's going to be partnering and sitting down and engaging in a negotiation with this agency on everything from pay benefits and the stressors and pressures of this system as well. And then lastly, it's going to make sure that we invest in Oklahoma City to continue not only the maximum throughput, but increase that throughput at the actual training facility itself.

Mr. Wied (01:59:36):

All right. Thank you. And with that, I yield back. I'd like to recognize Ms. Pou for five minutes for questions.

Ms. Pou (01:59:44):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our ranking member for holding this hearing at a very critical time for aviation safety in America. The airspace around the New York City metro area, which includes my district, is the most crowded and complex in the entire country. Yet despite this, the New York regional air traffic facility has not been spared from air traffic controller safety staffing problems. This is a major safety concern with serious consequences. We saw those consequences early last year when there was a near collision at Kennedy Airport.

(02:00:32)
Within our congested airspace, we can also find a constant stream of helicopter traffic, many of which are non-essential air tours. I am anxious, anxious to work with the committee to identify ways to improve safety and restore confidence to the flying public. There are a few areas more important for us to focus on. We are in desperate need of air traffic controllers in this country.

(02:01:05)
In recent years, we have barely hired more controllers than we have actually lost. Mr. Daniels, why does it take so long for someone to become fully certified as an air traffic controller? How can we improve the pipeline of future air traffic controllers to meet our growing needs? This is something that we really need to address and we need to find ways to do it and need to do it now. What say you?

Mr. Daniels (02:01:41):

Congresswoman, thank you for the opportunity to clarify what many people don't know. We're 3,600 certified professional controllers short today. You cannot hire 3,600 people to go in and start working in a facility. It takes years of training. It takes roughly between two to three years from the time you're hired, and that's just passing the initial qualifications. We go then through multiple training evaluation milestones. We go to an Oklahoma City Academy. If you don't meet the standard, you're removed as an air traffic controller.

(02:02:11)
You then get assigned to a facility, maybe in your hometown, it could be completely across the country. You then go and start with simulation training and book work. If you don't meet the standard, you're removed as an air traffic controller. You then begin talking to aircraft. And if you don't meet the standard, you're removed from being an air traffic controller. We do this to ensure that when it's critical, it's needed the most, that your life is in our hands, that you have all the training and expertise to rely on and you do not have to worry what evaluation that we've gone to. You know we meet the high standard that we demand and that we ensure everyone that we work with meets.

Ms. Pou (02:02:51):

Thank you. Thank you for your response. But we are living at a time when there is so much stress going on all around the country, and this is certainly true for our air traffic controller employees. In your testimony, Mr. Daniels, you describe how air traffic controllers' shortage has led to grueling shifts for what is already a high-pressured job. What is the impact of shortage on the workforce mental health, and what can Congress do to help? We really need to address this at a time that is so pivotal in our country.

Mr. Daniels (02:03:34):

Congresswoman, we appreciate it. We look forward to engaging. The stresses and pressures of this job that normally exist are incredible. That is the reason that we have to continue recruiting the best and the brightest, that we have to continue incentivizing not only those to come into this career field, but to remain in this career field. Because we're working six-day work weeks, 60 hours in that week. Any person that goes out and lives a regular life

Mr. Daniels (02:04:00):

… that only has four days off in a month, knows that they're going to at some point, either break, want to walk away from, and yes, we have a medical system that does not meet the standards of today as in getting help that each and every person needs. It is archaic. It needs to be reviewed. There are arc recommendations that we look forward to working with the agency arm to implement and bring our controller standards up for us to address our mental health issues while going through all of this.

Ms. Pou (02:04:28):

Thank you so very much. I look forward to working with you on that as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

Mr. Wied (02:04:34):

Thank you. The gentlelady yields back and I recognize Mr. Begich for five minutes for questions.

Mr. Begich (02:04:44):

Thank you. Question for Mr. Rinaldi. We recently experienced tragedy in Alaska with an airline flight from Unalakleet that crashed outside of Nome. It was a reminder of Alaska's unique, challenging operating environment. As you know, Alaska's extremely remote in comparison to lower-forty-eight and Alaska has the highest per capita air accident rates of any state in the nation. What changes in process or technology do you believe would improve aviation safety in remote regions of the nation like Alaska?

Mr. Rinaldi (02:05:23):

Thank you, sir. Thank you for the question. Yes, aviation is the number one mode of transportation in Alaska and it's unique. You need to have the most modern equipment you certainly should be utilizing space-based ADS-B and all types of other tools to make sure to give the most accurate weather, certainly the most accurate situation that's going on there. Our hearts go out to the families and the people that were lost in that crash, but it happens a lot up there and we need to enhance the safety of the system and really focus on it.

Mr. Begich (02:06:04):

Thank you very much. You mentioned a statistic, 92% of federal funding that's going to support technology is going to maintain existing technology and we heard as well that so much of that technology is aged out, that it's not even able to be maintained any longer. Can you just expand for just one minute on the importance of investing in aviation technology modernization and why that's so important?

Mr. Rinaldi (02:06:39):

Yeah, absolutely. We're stuck in the 1980s and 1990s because we're stuck with the FAA facilities and equipment budget, so much of it is going, 92, 93 depending on the year, is going to maintain this archaic system that they can't use. They're just using 8%, so they're going very flat and not deep to modernize this system. Now, I'll be the first one to tell you, I would not give the FAA a blank check because I'm not really quite sure they would use it properly with their broken acquisition management system. Congress gave them 75 million to expedite the new NOTAMs program and they still have not awarded that contract. That was two years ago. So I think you need some type of structure there to restructure the situation and understand that you just can't give them money because under this current structure it won't work.

Mr. Begich (02:07:36):

Thank you. So just to recap, resources have been provided. They've been allocated by Congress, it's the FAA's broken processes that have limited the ability to deploy those funds in a responsible way that would be supportive of accelerating modernization, is that correct?

Mr. Rinaldi (02:07:51):

I would say that's correct. I would also say not enough resources have been given to facilities and equipment to modernize the system quick enough.

Mr. Begich (02:08:01):

Thank you. And with that I yield the balance of my time to Chairman Nehls.

Chairman Nehls (02:08:06):

Thank you, sir. Mr. Daniels, and we're talking about the age and everything. I'm reading your written testimony. I don't see anything in there that talks really about the hiring process. So it is my understanding from start to finish, it takes like 12.8 months, over a year, to hire somebody to get them in the pipeline to Oklahoma City. Is that right? About a year, over a year?

Mr. Daniels (02:08:28):

Congressman, we aren't involved with the initial recruitment, but that is-

Chairman Nehls (02:08:33):

I'll just tell you what it is. It's over a year long. I'm thinking now why? Why would it take… I know Secretary Duffy said we want to try to condense the steps from eight steps to five steps, but over a year to me would be unacceptable. The gentleman I talked to yesterday in my office, he said, "It's over a year." He said, "You know what the problem is we're not short of hiring candidates. We've got thousands of them, but we're short of psychiatrists." I said, "What the hell do you mean you're short of psychiatrists?" "Well, everybody's got to go through an exam, but there's hundreds if not thousands of them up against a brick wall 'cause we don't have enough psychiatrists." What is your union doing to address that? Are you bringing that issue to the forefront?

Mr. Daniels (02:09:13):

Chairman, we've gone for decades saying that we need to speed up that process.

Chairman Nehls (02:09:17):

It should, 'cause it's affecting your staffing. Some simple fixes. Simple fixes. It only makes sense. I yield back.

Mr. Wied (02:09:23):

Thank you. The gentleman yields back and I recognize Ms. Gillen for five minutes for questions.

Ms. Gillen (02:09:27):

Thank you. Mr. Daniels, thank you for being here today. I'm honored to represent New York's fourth congressional district, which is the south shore of Nassau County on Long Island and it is also the home to New York TRACON N90. After multiple delays and strong opposition from the New York Congressional delegation, the FAA nonetheless required 12 air traffic controllers to relocate from N90 on Long Island to Philadelphia uprooting these civil servants from their families, from their friends and from their lives. Do you have any insight on why this decision or decisions like this are being made and the impact that it could have on our airspace and on air traffic controller morale?

Mr. Daniels (02:10:12):

Thank you, Congresswoman, for the question. It is a dangerous precedent to set to force air traffic controllers out of their home facilities to another one. The two parties, NACA and FAA have shown a strong commitment to collaboration and anything that we reach an agreement on, we'll stand by, we'll put our name behind and we'll do, but just the forcing of air traffic controllers to solve temporary problems is not something we want to be in the business of.

Ms. Gillen (02:10:34):

Thank you. I'd like to address another major problem in my district, which is the unauthorized use of drones. We saw a lot of press coverage about drones flying over New Jersey, over New York recently, and my district is right next door to JFK Airport, which is one of the busiest air spaces in the world. And the risk of a drone incursion into our airspace and across the path of a major airliner is very, very real. What can we do to make sure our air traffic controllers have what they need to avert a disaster?

Mr. Daniels (02:11:11):

Thank you, Congresswoman. It's been stated many times today and agreed upon by those on this panel that it has to be a funding reform and a change to our strategy for the long-term enhancement of the equipment that we use. If that equipment is to start dealing with unmanned area vehicles, drones, and otherwise, we put out advisories, we know what we see in the sky right now and provide any information we can. But the enhancement of technologies, the enhancement of rules to ensure and protect the America's public and the safety of the flying public, we will absolutely stand behind, we would partner or we would want to be a part of and collaborate on that initiative.

Ms. Gillen (02:11:49):

There's a lot of information in the testimony. I reviewed the written testimony of all the witnesses about the need to update our equipment and how our technology is lagging behind. It seems like the price tag to do this is quite high. You can elaborate further on that. And then the second part of that question is, in terms of if you couldn't get everything at once, what do you think is the most critical part of our infrastructure that needs to be improved?

Mr. Daniels (02:12:19):

Congressman, I think sometimes just a simple example is the best way to handle it when it comes to needing the funding reform. You don't go and buy a house and then not know how much money you're going to have next month to pay for that house. You'll start making decisions on maybe the couch that's going to go in that house, but I cannot buy the entire house. And that's quite often what's happening inside the FAA. If there is one thing that we need to put our efforts behind, I'll expand it to two, because I believe that they're critical, is the telecommunications and then also our NOTAM system. Both of those can cripple the nation's flying public.

Ms. Gillen (02:12:51):

Thank you. Mr. Spero. Last year's FAA Reauthorization Act, which was signed into law in May, included millions of dollars in aviation workforce grants to help build and grow the talent pipeline of pilots, technicians and manufacturers. However, FAA remains woefully understaffed. For example, as of December it was short about 800 technicians. What else should Congress do to help recruit and maintain a skilled aviation workforce?

Mr. Spero (02:13:21):

Congresswoman, thank you for the question. When it comes to our Airway transportation system specialist workforce, right now, about 36% of them are over the age of 55-years-old, so they're coming on to retirement very soon. We have asked the FAA to create a workforce plan that addresses what they're going to do with this workforce going forward in the future. That is supposedly in the works. I've seen some drafts of it, but as far as I know, they've not provided that to Congress as of yet. I will say that this workforce, if properly staffed and resourced, can be a participant in upgrading the national airspace system. If we have enough of them around the country at every airport, we can participate in the installation and implementation of new systems.

Ms. Gillen (02:14:14):

Thank you, sir. Mr. Daniels, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy, announced last week that he intends to supercharge air traffic controller hiring at the FAA, including by raising starting salaries and streamlining the hiring process. What impact will this announcement have and what should the administration be doing to fill the workforce shortage?

Mr. Daniels (02:14:37):

We look forward to working with Secretary Duffy on our current workforce and recruiting those in. We need to engage in talking about the pay and benefits associated with this job because of the stresses and pressures and what we're under, we need to retain the air traffic controllers that we have today.

Ms. Gillen (02:14:52):

Thank you. I yield back.

Chairman Nehls (02:14:55):

Gentlelady yields. I ask [inaudible 02:14:57] to enter into the record the white paper for more than 30 aviation stakeholders outlining several priorities on air traffic control, infrastructure and staffing sent on February 9th, 2025, without objection, so ordered. I recognize Mr. Bresnahan for five minutes.

Mr. Bresnahan (02:15:11):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for taking time to come out here and testify in front of the subcommittee. Something that we've been hearing a lot more of is the conversations relating to ADS-B and I am a licensed helicopter pilot, so obviously my heartfelt feelings towards the DCA tragedy and really where the terminology something that we frequently reference in the world of aviation, but something that gives me the agita when I'm flying is not every aircraft is equipped with ADS-B. And my first question would be to Mr. Bunce about where do you see the technology moving with third-party applications and how can we in Congress try to ensure that every aircraft is equipped with ADS in and out technology?

Mr. Bunce (02:16:04):

Yes, sir. As you know, when we initially made the mandate out there, it was what we consider in the veil. So basically underneath really busy airports, class B, class C airspace as we classify, once you get beyond that, then it's not a requirement. But if you think about where we're going as a nation, we as an aviation nation, we're employing advanced air mobility, but also drones out there. One of the impediments to the beyond visual light and a site rule that is stalled right now is because we don't have a way to deconflict, especially with helicopters that are flying down low below 400 feet with those drones, but our drones now are equipping with technology to be able to detect that ADS-B signal. And NASA is actually taking on an effort to see if we can field very low-cost systems that we already put out in sailplanes.

(02:16:54)
And if that signal is strong enough to be able to allow the drone, which you can't see with your eyes to be able to avoid us. Those drones, it's a big deal. We saw in California that drone impact of that water bomber out there, and it's only a matter of time where we're going to have a significant midair collision with a drone that can take down an aircraft, especially if it hits in the windscreen. So I'm glad you brought it up, because it's a really important priority that we look at expanding that technology.

Mr. Bresnahan (02:17:22):

You nailed it, and I mean, drones very frequently, helicopters are flying 4 or 500 feet AGL and a drone gets…

Mr. Knott (02:17:29):

[inaudible 02:33:20] continue [inaudible 02:33:57].

Mr. Daniels (02:34:07):

[inaudible 02:34:07] the actual way that we think that reform needs to happen is that budgetary reform that you speak of is looking at the different metrics and measures, the aviation trust fund being a part of it, but mainly all sitting down to come to a solution that allows for that long-term funding to occur, because the lack of planning that we can do today is honestly the main crippling component of it. So any accountability put in place-

Mr. Knott (02:34:31):

Why can't you plan?

Mr. Daniels (02:34:33):

Say that again, sir.

Mr. Knott (02:34:33):

You said your inability to plan for the future. Why can't you plan? Is it because of the budget? Is it because of bureaucracy?

Mr. Daniels (02:34:40):

It's because from day-to-day, month-to-month, continuing resolution to continuing resolution, that funding either doesn't change, it's already being spent on something else and it's not being put to modernizing as it's needed.

Mr. Knott (02:34:50):

Okay. Well, looking back, you said it's long overdue. What are things that we can do in terms of air traffic control

Mr. Knott (02:35:00):

… to assist air traffic control in making these needs known earlier, more urgently, so we don't find ourselves in this predicament going forward?

Mr. Daniels (02:35:09):

Congressman and thank you. NACA has been advocating for at least 10 years on the very change that you speak of. Number one, it has to be in the realm of telecommunications. That is a major impediment to the system and it's a safety risk. Not only that, then it would be the NOTAM system. The NOTAM system that provides information to pilots across the country, that would need to be invested in, corrected and fixed because again, it takes down the entire system when it's not up-to-date. And then get into the controller needs. That's going to be an information display system. Right now, an iPad has 10 times the amount of information than a controller does at our fingertips when we're controlling airplanes. It's antiquated. We're clicking on buttons and quite often not even being able to use it. And then the last one's going to be the investment in our surveillance or our radar, so we have surface awareness and we can be out looking out the windows or the planes, instead of spending time looking for information.

Mr. Knott (02:36:03):

Is there a way, in your opinion, sir, to decentralize the bureaucratic mechanism that currently seems to exist? It seems like the Air Traffic Controllers is very centralized from the training to the equipment requests, to procurement requests, whatever it may be. Is there a way to decentralize so that there is more efficiencies within the system?

Mr. Daniels (02:36:22):

Sir, I don't know exactly what that answer would be, but I know that being a part of it and ensuring that those monies are going towards the accurate or the actual issues will be key to all of it. And NACA's involvement is that so a piece of equipment isn't rolled out, and then we find out what it is and how it doesn't actually work for us, that continues to be the broken model that exists today. If somebody buys something, we look at it and say, "We can't use that," and then we can start the process all over again. So anything that's an effort to fix that, we absolutely support.

Mr. Knott (02:36:54):

And then my last question, sir, how is air traffic controlling doing with recruiting new members, seeking careers in that field, training them, and then dispersing them into that career?

Mr. Daniels (02:37:06):

Congressman, we agree wholeheartedly with Secretary Duffy that this is the time to recruit the best and brightest, to invest in the people. And that's going to come through working on not only the hiring and the training of those Air Traffic Controllers and incentivizing them into the career field, not just while at Oklahoma City Academy, but the ones who are coming in and then going to live in either a high cost of living area and retaining the Air Traffic Controllers that we have today that are leaving quite often because of the stresses and pressures of six-day work weeks.

Mr. Knott (02:37:34):

Do you see any value in having more academies besides just the Oklahoma City Academy or do you like the model of having it just in one place?

Mr. Daniels (02:37:41):

Congressman, NACA is on record. We support any ability to maximize the throughput of Air Traffic Controllers through a system.

Mr. Knott (02:37:47):

Okay. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, sir.

Speaker 1 (02:37:50):

Gentleman yields. Mr. Carbajal, you're recognized.

Mr. Carbajal (02:37:53):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I too want to offer my condolences for those that were lost in the recent American Airlines tragedy. It was a sad day for our country and for the citizens that we lost. Mr, Bunce, currently, we are nearing another government funding deadline. Can you discuss how past government lapses impacted the FAA's ability to provide continued certainty for safety and ongoing modernization of the system?

Mr. Bunce (02:38:25):

Yes, sir. Over time, we've all participated in this, and each time that we get ready to go into a potential shutdown, all of a sudden, the FAA starts to prepare for that. So in my world, certification starts to stop communications. It really breaks down because the FAA starts to focus on that. And then if we do go into a shutdown we've talked about, all that happens within the system. We require controllers and others to be still on watch doing their job, but we don't pay them. So that affects morale.

(02:39:01)
But then after a shutdown is done, then all of a sudden, we have the reconstitution time. So it's not just the period of shutdown, it extends far beyond that. And many of us have been up on The Hill many times talking to members on both sides of the aisle and it just seems like especially our controllers are the pawn in the middle of a shutdown that both sides want to be able to use and say, "See the pain?" And we just all look at this and go, "Can we just stop this and exempt this agency that is all about safety from all of these perturbations that happens during shutdowns?"

Mr. Carbajal (02:39:38):

Thank you. Mr. Daniels, in a similar vein, I want to hear from you about the impact of a potential government shutdown on Air Traffic Controllers. I understand that Air Traffic Controllers already work long hours and have tremendous responsibility in managing our nation's airspace. How will a government shutdown impact training and retention and what are the long- term implications for Air Traffic Controllers if there is a prolonged shutdown?

Mr. Daniels (02:40:05):

Congressman, thank you for the ability to address the question. This is going to exacerbate the crisis. There is no doubt about it. A government shutdown cuts off and severs the artery to the actual fix, which is the hiring of Air Traffic Controllers, and then placing them in for training. The Oklahoma City Academy shuts down during a government shutdown. Controllers then that are currently controlling don't get paid, and then all of our support and resources that help us on a daily basis, everything from creating a chart to making sure we have the latest information, they are sent home. So it is just us, keying a headset, talking to the aircraft, and there is no modernization. There is no new trainees coming in and just a day shutdown puts us months behind. A 35-day shutdown, put us 500 trainees behind, which was 25% of the new trainees coming into the system last year.

Mr. Carbajal (02:41:01):

Thank you. Mr. Daniels, many Americans have been reminded of the critical importance of Air Traffic Controllers in maintaining safety within our national airspace. Can you discuss the type of training that individuals go through to qualify for a job as an Air Traffic Controller? And two, can you discuss how President Trump's baseless claims about the FAA's workforce impact recruitment and safety?

Mr. Daniels (02:41:26):

Thank you, Congressman. The beginning of your question is every time a controller isn't in the news, it's a good day for us. We continuously are the people behind the curtain that no one knows about. People get on a plane, they put on headphones, they recline their chair, and they just know that they're going to arrive safely. That's what we pride ourselves in, is that every American and every person who traverses the airspace, they are in our capable hands. And that comes along with the training that is needed, which is two to three years to get that person ready to certify for the moment of either the routine day, the extremely complex day, because every day that one of the Air Traffic Controllers goes to work is a new day, a new system, and it's something that they haven't seen before. So they have to be at the top of their game.

(02:42:11)
Now, for the recruitment of Air Traffic Controllers, again, we look forward to working with Congress and Secretary Duffy on the recruitment of the best and brightest. We have to sit down and talk about the pay and benefits associated with it if we're going to be bringing new persons into this field, and we stand by ready to engage at any moment to do just that.

Mr. Carbajal (02:42:34):

Did DEI have anything to do with the recent accident?

Mr. Daniels (02:42:38):

Our Air Traffic Controllers are highly skilled, highly trained and go through two to three years. It's regardless of race or gender, who is able to make it through this career field. There are multiple job jeopardy points or training evaluation milestones through the academy, through simulation training, and then through talking to the aircraft themselves that they can be removed from if they don't meet the standards.

Mr. Carbajal (02:42:58):

Thank you very much. Mr. [inaudible 02:43:00], I yield back.

Speaker 1 (02:43:01):

Gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr. Van Drew.

Mr. Van Drew (02:43:05):

Thank you, Chairman. So on a lighter note, because you always have to have a lighter note, right? Everybody's got to smile once in a while. The Chairman mentioned that some of the recruiting difficulties we've had when you met with some folks was because of the psychiatric testing and a shortage of psychiatrists. I just got to tell you, I think it's real good that to be a member of Congress, you don't have to go through that psychiatric testing. All right? What do you think, Chairman? Right? We've been here a few years.

(02:43:33)
I just wanted to acknowledge that the FAA really has been doing a good job and it's an incredible job addressing the recent events, the tragic events that we've all gone through and it's an invaluable asset to this nation. I've said it before, I'll say it again. I'm always happy to support them and as you know, I have the FAA Tech Center in my district in the State of New Jersey. Good people do a good job. I'm proud of them. I'm proud of what they represent, proud of the work that they do.

(02:44:01)
And you knew, and you've touched on this already, so I'm not going to go into detail. We have 1,020 fewer certified professional controllers than in 2012, 9% decrease in the number and yet we have an increase in the responsibilities, the work and the volume that's there. It's a lengthy training process. We talked about that. The bottom line is we got to do better, and I think Secretary Duffy really knows that. I think it's abundantly clear and I'm hoping in a bipartisan way on both sides of the aisle that when it comes to this, regardless of some nuances and differences in opinion on some things, that we've got to do better. And I brought this up to Mr. Spero last time you were here, I don't know if you remember, but Atlantic City International Airport and of course, I've toured the FAA numerous times. The 177th Fighter Wing is right next door and of course, the Air Traffic Controllers that went up in the tower, interesting, they were still using floppy disks.

(02:45:01)
I think, I know that they're changing that this year is my understanding. Hopefully they've changed it already, but just so people understand that aren't involved in this industry, this business [inaudible 02:45:11] in Congress, they were using this to update their IDS4 systems as a technology from 1994, not 2004, not 2012, 1994. And again, if it wasn't sad, it would be humorous. They had a difficult time obtaining these disks so they would go to places like Sam's Warehouse and other such retail stores to actually get what they needed. That's not how we become the best, the brightest, the sharpest, the fastest. That's not how America's number one. So thank goodness they're changing that. Mr. Spero, can you give us any update on what's going on there at AC quickly?

Mr. Spero (02:45:50):

Thank you, Congressman. Yes, I do remember our interaction last time on this topic. So the EIDS system is currently in process. We've got some folks working with them on it. I do want to tell you that there's a question of whether or not right now, the FAA is going to terminate our participation in this program and some others. So we bring a lot of technical expertise that's necessary for a smooth and swift implementation on this system. There's about 400 of them to roll out and the FAA is saying it's going to take them till about 2030 to make that happen. We don't think that.

(02:46:31)
Honestly, and I said before and I said to you last time I was here, if our workforce was properly staffed and properly resourced, we would be able to participate in the implementation of this system, but we're not. We don't have enough of us out there to do this, but honestly, from the technical perspective of an installation, it is not one of the more complicated things to accomplish. It could be done in a week or so.

Mr. Van Drew (02:46:55):

I hope Secretary Duffy will help with this because we really got to get moving. I agree with you. It's important. I'm going to ask a question. Any one of you are free to answer. It's going to be a little different. Anybody has the guts to answer it. So last year, we all remember, drones. I'm not talking about we're behind in the technology and all the technical issues. A lot of people saw them. A lot of people saw them. There were sightings. The Coast Guard saw them, the nuclear plant, my district professionals saw them. Chiefs of Police were in my office the other day and they asked if I could find out more about it? Originally, they said that they didn't know what it was. The Pentagon didn't know what it was. Department of Defense, they knew it was something, nothing to fear. They didn't know where they were going, what they had, but nothing to worry about. Then we were told that it was just backyard drones. We found out that wasn't accurate either.

(02:47:44)
And now recently, we've been told it was the FAA, which I don't understand because it was the FAA. When we have communicated, we spent a lot of money getting the Department of Defense out there, getting advanced radar systems out there that could detect if they were doing frequency skipping. Spent money with the different agencies, police officers, the municipal police, Chiefs of Police, none of them knew what was going on. Can anybody tell me, if it was the FAA, why wasn't there some level of communication? Mr. Daniels, you look like a brave man.

Mr. Daniels (02:48:19):

Congressman, I'll jump in. If it was the FAA, we have standards and rules associated with who can we operate in and around the airspace for any type of drones. That means we weren't aware of it and we remain committed to working with the agency and ensuring that that situational awareness occurs in and around all of our airports.

Mr. Van Drew (02:48:36):

Yeah. Well, that's good and all, and I'm going to yield in a second. Something's up. I don't know. It was either a gross malfunction, dysfunction in communication, horrible, or there's something more to it, one or the other. And nobody can give me a good answer. I yield back, Chairman.

Speaker 1 (02:48:55):

Gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr. Stanton for five minutes.

Mr. Stanton (02:48:57):

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and for the witnesses for being here today for this critically important hearing. I also want to extend my thank you to Laurel Grant and Amy Hunter for being here and to represent all families of the victims of that horrific crash that occurred just last month and just a short distance away from where we are sitting right now. Our skies are busier than ever. Safety has to be our number one priority. This committee has sounded the alarm about aviation workforce shortages, particularly Air Traffic Controllers, for years. The issue has never been partisan. As my colleagues have said, we worked across the aisle to craft and pass the bipartisan Federal Aviation Administration Reauthorization Act of 2024, and it passed the House overwhelmingly. This bill lays out a clear roadmap to improve our air traffic control system, including hiring more Air Traffic Controllers to address critical understaffing issues and updating aging air traffic control technology and systems, many of which are decades old, paper strips and floppy disks, as Mr. Calio has recently testified.

(02:50:08)
After the devastating crash at Reagan Airport and a series of incidents across the country, including two fatal accidents recently at Arizona airports, my colleagues and I did send a letter to Secretary Duffy two weeks ago, calling him to immediately implement these bipartisan improvements in the FAA reauthorization. Instead of focusing on those safety improvements, Secretary Duffy has sidestepped this committee's bipartisan informed FAA bill and invited Elon Musk and DOGE to poke around the FAA and the complex air traffic control systems. We cannot allow Silicon Valley's move-fast-and-break-things ethos to impact our commitment to safety in the United States aviation sector. Case in point, Secretary Duffy allowed DOGE to hand out pink slips to hundreds of critical air traffic control staff. That action alone should be setting off alarm bells for every member of this committee concerned about maintaining the gold standard in aviation safety.

(02:51:07)
Mr. Spero, as my colleagues and I have mentioned here today, the recent firings at the FAA targeted some safety specialists, including members of professional aviation, safety specialists or past. Can you briefly speak to the importance of these individuals who are fired and the impact that that has on aviation safety?

Mr. Spero (02:51:29):

Congressman, thank you for the question and thank you for recognizing the folks that we represent. I brought up a few of them here today, but I'll talk about another handful of people, telecommunications specialists. Some of them were fired because they're probationary employees. And Mr. Daniels was talking about telecommunications issues. They have a very specific field of expertise when it comes to internet protocol and of course, the agency's going through a transition right now, trying to get off of something called time-domain multiplexing and going to internet protocol and that's causing them a problem and a lot of money. In the midst of that, we fire some of those folks. And when we talk about the Management and Program Assistants, it seems like that's a very bureaucratic job. It's not. It supports our technician workforce, our airway transportation system specialists so they can accomplish the work that they do every day. Logistics, making sure that contractors are there on time, and a variety of other tasks that they don't have to spend time away from doing.

Mr. Stanton (02:52:36):

I really appreciate the answer. Mr. Daniels, excuse me, some of the industry are calling for limits to Article 114 activities, which obviously promotes labor management, discussion conversation on improving our national aviation systems, including safety. What would be the consequences of changes in relation to aviation safety?

Mr. Daniels (02:52:57):

Congressman, I appreciate the question. There's no better example than between 2006 and 2009. When the FAA and NACA did not have an agreement in place, there were zero technologies implemented or actually deployed to the field for three consecutive years when NACA SMEs, subject matter experts, weren't involved. It cannot be a system where you don't involve the very people who work with the equipment day in and day out. Leadership 101 is you go and work with those closest to the issue. We are the ones closest to the issue. We will continue to seek solutions that are a cost savings to the taxpayers and that is our commitment.

Mr. Stanton (02:53:36):

We really appreciate that, and bringing labor management to the table has real benefits, including on aviation safety. Finally, we can be creative in finding solutions to staffing problems. The FAA Contract Tower Program is one of the FAA's most successful government industry partnerships. The FAA Reauthorization Act included my provision, directing FAA to establish a pilot program to convert high activity air traffic control towers operating under the Contract Tower Program to FAA staffed visual flight rule towers. And I just wanted to make note that that is a program that we need to implement and move forward with. It's important in my district, including Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport. And with that, I yield back.

Speaker 1 (02:54:15):

Gentlemen yields. Mr. Mast, you're recognized.

Mr. Mast (02:54:17):

Thank you, Chairman. Unlike everybody else, I'm going to pick on Mr. Daniels for a little while here. Good to see you all. Are you an Air Traffic Controller yourself?

Mr. Daniels (02:54:26):

Congressman, yes, sir. I am, for 26 years.

Mr. Mast (02:54:28):

Went to school when?

Mr. Daniels (02:54:30):

I am currently assigned Fort Worth Center Air Traffic Control Center.

Mr. Mast (02:54:34):

You went to school when?

Mr. Daniels (02:54:35):

I went to school as a high school graduate in Fort Worth, Texas.

Mr. Mast (02:54:40):

As an Air Traffic Controller?

Mr. Daniels (02:54:41):

No, I went through high school, and then went to the United States Marine Corps at the age of 19, where I learned my skills as an Air Traffic Controller.

Mr. Mast (02:54:47):

And how well did they transfer over from military service into civilian air traffic controlling?

Mr. Daniels (02:54:52):

The basics of air traffic control in general are learned and understood, but every facility is unique and it takes years to transition into that facility. So when I moved from the Marine Corps into Addison Tower, it took months. It took almost a year to get fully up to speed. And then when I went from Addison Tower to Fort Worth Center, it took approximately two years for me to train there.

Mr. Mast (02:55:14):

What was your MOS title?

Mr. Daniels (02:55:15):

7252, 7253, Tower and Radar Air Traffic Controller.

Mr. Mast (02:55:19):

Very good. And so to just be clear, then and today, whatever branch of the military you are, whether you're that in the Marine Corps, whether you're a JTAC in the Air Force or whatever, it transitions, but it doesn't transition just like that with the click of a finger?

Mr. Daniels (02:55:34):

Congressman, that's correct. You have to go through the trainings and standards for the entire system, and then for the facility specific.

Mr. Mast (02:55:40):

Okay. Now, walk me through. I'm trying to understand just the training pipeline for Air Traffic Controllers, right? When you started the actual schooling portion of becoming an Air Traffic Controller, is it pretty similar today to what it was when you went through?

Mr. Daniels (02:55:55):

When I went through the Marine Corps, it was its own specific-

Mr. Mast (02:55:58):

As a civilian, when you went through as a civilian?

Mr. Daniels (02:56:00):

Once I became a civilian?

Mr. Mast (02:56:03):

Yes.

Mr. Daniels (02:56:03):

I did not have to go through the FAA Academy that 95% of the trainees have to go through because of my previous experience in the Marine Corps.

Mr. Mast (02:56:09):

How much of the schooling were you able to knock out by your military experience?

Mr. Daniels (02:56:15):

I was able to completely bypass it in going to a tower. If I was to go to an in-route facility, I would've had to go directly to that facility and learn there.

Mr. Mast (02:56:23):

So you did go right to a tower. You didn't have to-

Mr. Daniels (02:56:27):

That is correct, sir.

Mr. Mast (02:56:28):

And so you were able to bypass all of it?

Mr. Daniels (02:56:31):

I was able to bypass the initial training since I had already gained experience, and then I was subject to the training at the facility itself.

Mr. Mast (02:56:40):

So for the military, how long does it take them to train somebody in what you did in the military that you were able to transition to do as a civilian without having to go through the civilian training? What's the delta between the timelines of training?

Mr. Daniels (02:56:55):

Congressman, it's almost exactly zero. It's approximately three months in the Marine Corps and then three months with the FAA.

Mr. Mast (02:57:01):

Apples to apples.

Mr. Daniels (02:57:02):

Correct, sir.

Mr. Mast (02:57:03):

Very good. And for anybody going through the civilian side of it, you're saying it's almost the exact same timeline. Walk me through what that looks like. What are the different sections that they're going through? What are they covering? What's the most difficult parts about it? Where do most of the people find attrition and start to fail out of it? Where's the really big part where you start to wash people and say, "These are the right individuals and these are the ones that are not going to make it and successfully traffic our skies and keep people safe?"

Mr. Daniels (02:57:34):

Congressman, the first initial weed out of just applicants in general are going to come through the rigorous medical standards, and then also the IQ standards that are set. You have to do a background check and also a security check.

Mr. Mast (02:57:48):

What are the IQ standards?

Mr. Daniels (02:57:49):

The IQ standards are one test given to everybody, and then you get ranked into tiers of your qualification level from there.

Mr. Mast (02:57:57):

It's not literally an IQ test. It's more of a standard of a number of different things. Like an ASVAB in the military.

Mr. Daniels (02:58:04):

That would be an equivalent. Yes, sir.

Mr. Mast (02:58:05):

Okay. And-

Mr. Daniels (02:58:06):

And then once you get to the Oklahoma City Academy, people begin to learn what the world of air traffic control is. It is a 4D continuous moving picture. A lot of people can operate in understanding book work, but then the practical application of being able to turn, descend, change and handle multiple things at one time. The continuous need to evaluate a scenario and then execute a plan is quite often the part where you begin losing the most people in air traffic control.

Mr. Mast (02:58:35):

Is there an AI component to air traffic controlling?

Mr. Daniels (02:58:38):

Say that one more time, sir?

Mr. Mast (02:58:39):

Is there an AI component to air traffic controlling?

Mr. Daniels (02:58:42):

Currently, there's no technologies that we interface with that have the AI component. We would be open to any new technologies, as long as they assist the Air Traffic Controller and don't do the job for us.

Mr. Mast (02:58:53):

Do you foresee that or can you foreshadow something where there is a value add because there's a technology developed as it relates to AI?

Mr. Daniels (02:59:01):

Congressman, any new technologies that are going to assist an Air Traffic Controller, as long as we're a partner in working with the FAA to evaluate it and then implement it, we'd be open to it as long as it assists us.

Mr. Mast (02:59:11):

But you don't have a specific, "Hey, there's really a hole right here that could be filled in part by technology where it would help augment the Air Traffic Controller or help value add to the Air Traffic Controller?" You don't see that right off the bat that you could share?

Mr. Daniels (02:59:23):

Congressman, the number one system right now is our information display system that is antiquated and does not give us real-time information for the airports or any of the traffic that we're servicing.

Mr. Mast (02:59:32):

Define "Not real-time?"

Mr. Daniels (02:59:34):

It is a computer that is updated approximately every 56 days, usually by floppy disk.

Mr. Mast (02:59:39):

Okay. What everybody's been speaking about on floppy disk. Okay, very good. My time has expired, but I appreciate the answer to my questions and I appreciate you all being here today.

Mr. Daniels (02:59:47):

Thank you, Congressman.

Mr. Mast (02:59:47):

Beautiful.

Speaker 1 (02:59:48):

The gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr. Garcia of Illinois.

Mr. Garcia (02:59:52):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member and of course, the witnesses for being here today. Last week at Midway Airport, located in a densely populated neighborhood in Chicago, a Southwest Airlines flight had to perform a go-around to avoid a jet that had crossed the runway. I'm sure that most of you have seen the disturbing video. The FAA and NTSB, of course, are investigating and early reports indicate that the jet crossed the runway without authorization to do so. I'm grateful for the Southwest Airline pilots and their actions to avoid a potential disaster. It's another harrowing reminder of the importance of upholding strong safety standards in our aviation system. This includes updating obsolete equipment. The surface surveillance radar used at Midway Airport is composed of parts that are no longer being made, forcing the airport to look for replacement parts from other airports.

(03:00:58)
Mr. Daniels, in your testimony, you highlighted your union's work with the FAA to fast track the Surface Awareness Initiative. This initiative would reduce the number of runway incursions at airports. Can you talk about why collaboration between your organization and the FAA in this initiative is so important and why funding upgrades to infrastructure is critical for safety?

Mr. Daniels (03:01:26):

Congressman, thank you for the question. It is a great example of success. When two parties get together and actually go out and procure a piece of equipment that we agree is needed and necessary and fits the bill instead of it being purchased in advance, and then given to us and say, "Can you make this thing work?" That is what usually sets us behind day in and day out, but our involvement was making sure that it was going to not only suit the controller's needs, but it could be also rapidly deployed given the proper long-term funding at the other facilities that is needed as well, that don't have any level of a surface awareness.

Mr. Garcia (03:02:04):

Thank you for that. Next, I'd like to discuss troubling reports that the FAA is looking to cancel a contract with Verizon to design, build and operate, a few of my colleagues have addressed this, the FAA's new communications platform, and to replace it with Elon Musk's Starlink. If that's not corruption, I don't know what is. Cancelling this federal contract will bring costly litigation and it will slow the work already being done. Where is the efficiency in that? Elon Musk's meddling with the federal workforce has also caused fear among Air Traffic Controllers. Roy Guerrero, an Air Traffic Controller at Midway, for example, is concerned about the threats to his livelihood. He received an infamous Musk email asking what he accomplished last week? What's he supposed to reply? Why is an Air Traffic Controller entrusted with the lives of the flying public in one shift being asked this question?

(03:03:18)
We need to be hiring as many Air Traffic Controllers as we can to meet the increasing demand for air travel. We need to be acting with the urgency to improve our aging infrastructure, not breaking contracts. Mr. Daniels, how damaging would a delay to the FAA's Enterprise Network Services program be to aviation safety?

Mr. Daniels (03:03:43):

Congressman, thank you for the question. Every time that we have delays associated with a lack of equipment, it reduces the capacity at the airport. Everything from telecommunications to the normal equipment that we access and use, we'll either have to figure out a way to work around it. Can we mitigate that risk? Because that's ultimately what safety's about. Can we mitigate the risks that are in front of us? And if we can't mitigate that risk, we have to begin reducing the capacity of the actual airspace to protect and preserve the safety of the American flying public.

Mr. Garcia (03:04:15):

And could I add to that, thus, the urgency of moving ahead with the legislation that we've passed here on a bipartisan basis to ensure that the flying public can continue to have confidence in our system?

Mr. Daniels (03:04:32):

Congressman, I know that I stand shoulder to shoulder with everyone that's on this panel of applauding this committee's work on the FAA Reauthorization of 2024, and we cannot derail that progress now by focusing on anything else than the crisis at hand.

Mr. Garcia (03:04:46):

Thank you, Mr. Daniels, all of the witnesses. And with that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman

Speaker 1 (03:04:51):

Gentleman yields. Mr. DeSaulnier, you're recognized.

Mr. DeSauInier (03:04:53):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really want to thank all the panel members. Having sat here and listened to your testimony, the sense of urgency that you all expressed was both frustrating, because I share your urgency and I'm very happy with the work we did and all the comments you did, but frustrated in how we get to this position in this wonderful industry with everyone has recognized how American leadership on aviation safety and the ability for Americans to travel is really quite remarkable, but that we let this crown jewel in many ways get to this point. And now my bill, Safe Landings Act, which was a result of the near miss at SFO 11 years ago, Air Canada flight came within 59 feet of landing on three loaded airplanes. And if it wasn't for the alertness of a United co-pilot seeing he had lined up incorrectly, we wouldn't have gotten all those things. So the good news is we're all engaged. We need to ramp up what we reauthorized, and then start filling the blanks. Mr. Calio, I was really struck

Mr. DeSauInier (03:06:00):

… struck by your comments, and I'm struck by it in contrast to a lot of the political debate right now about this partnership. Clearly the aviation industry needs the public sector. This is public-private partnerships, but this is a model for your shareholders. I mean, I've always argued it's a low return on investment business, but we still need to have investors and we've got to respect them. But I was particularly taken by your comments, and I want to ask you the importance of looking at this critically. I was just saying to staff, I'm sure the insurance industry has sophisticated actuary reports on risk assessments when you get to this level of staffing.

(03:06:47)
So one question is, are you aware of anything like that? And how we could really model the decrease from a sophisticated and analytical perspective, instead of relying on near misses, which are important, but just if you get to this level of staffing, where I live at SFO, this is the danger you have into the whole system. Do we have anything like that at a macro level where we could express to the administration that it's not about blindly cutting staff to increase efficiency? I refer to as the Department of DOPE, having been a business owner for many years and believe in efficiency, there's lots of efficiencies we could work on in a non-partisan, bipartisan way. Could you tell me just the industry, and the partnership, and the respect you expressed for the rank-and-file public employees? We don't have safety if we don't have competent rank-and-file public employees at the FAA. Could you just add to that comment? And if there are such analytics in your industry that you're aware of that would better help us guide the urgency of your testimony, and getting the reauthorization amped up, but also further funding.

Mr. Calio (03:07:57):

Thank you Congressman. There are analytics that we can get to you and provide to you, we look at them all the time. Obviously our members look at them within their own companies to find the efficiencies, make sure they have the employees that they have. Overall, I would say, there have been failings in terms of efficiencies, in terms of how money has been spent, how technology has been employed or not employed. And that's what I would urge this committee frankly to keep its focus on. We all have our parochial interests, we have a bigger issue here. We have to galvanize today to do what we can. And I would urge you to look and we'd be happy to come in and talk about them.

Mr. DeSauInier (03:08:37):

Yeah.

Mr. Calio (03:08:37):

We have provided shirt-term, medium-term, and long-term recommendations. We have the opportunity to do things right now in terms of an emergency funding bill, we can make a leap forward on where we are now. And that I think is incumbent upon all of us to do that. And again, keep our focus. Keep our focus.

Mr. DeSauInier (03:08:58):

That would be great. Just a risk assessment, when we get to the staffing level, there's a higher risk. So looking at near misses are important, but there's got to be more sophisticated analytics than that. Mr. Daniels, I've mentioned this before having been at the tower at SFO and listened to high-cost areas and the challenges in recruiting, which is where most of the volume is in places like New York and D.C, and San Francisco, and L.A. Could you speak to that a little bit? Your members have told me over and over again in California and here is, you can't get young people going into the field for a variety of reasons, but not least of which high housing costs. So the differential isn't significant enough.

Mr. Daniels (03:09:36):

Congressman, thank you for the chance to address the question. We are not immune to the economy, we are not immune to having to move across and away from our families when we take and go to serve the American public in this job. We have members from coast to coast in many different areas, we will forever be bound by an airport and those airports have high costs of living. And we must keep up with it, and we must sit down and work with this administration on the pay and benefits associated with it.

Mr. DeSauInier (03:10:05):

Mr. Chairman, this is an example of blue areas and red areas. Everybody travels and they all have to go through these areas that are maybe democratic areas just because of the volume, but your constituents, our constituents all over the country are going through them. So if we approach it from a safety perspective, that serves everyone. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Nehls (03:10:25):

Thank you. The gentleman yields for the panel. We have votes at 1:30, I think we have two members yet, so we should be through here very shortly. Ms. Davids, you're recognized.

Ms. Davids (03:10:37):

Thank you Chairman Nehls, and also thank you to ranking member Cohen for holding this hearing today. Thank you, of course, to our witnesses for taking the time to be here. Millions of passengers are able to board, fly, and disembark flights in the United States every year thanks to the scores of hardworking personnel across our country, and the most advanced technology in the world. Unfortunately and heartbreakingly, sometimes terrible accidents do occur like the mid-air collision of Flight 5342, which originated in Kansas and the military aircraft PAT 25.

(03:11:16)
I do want to acknowledge and share my heartfelt condolences to the families, some of who I know showed up here today and to all the communities that are grieving right now. Overall, the United States does still enjoy exceedingly safe national airspace, and does so without a second thought. Safety isn't free though, from fully implementing next gen and upgrading our air traffic control systems, to training and retaining folks like aviation safety specialists and air traffic controllers, we have to continue to invest the time and resources to ensure that we're protecting the flying public.

(03:11:57)
I do want to note that in the entire time that I've been doing this job, I have seen the professionalism and the commitment to safety of our aviation safety specialists and our air traffic controllers. And I want to continue the conversation about that human capital investment that was started earlier by my colleague Rob Titus. I'd like to start with a question for Mr. Spero and Mr. Daniels, can you talk through, how long is the training process for becoming a fully certified professional controller or certified Airway Transportation System Specialist?

Mr. Daniels (03:12:35):

Thank you, Congresswoman for the question. It takes approximately two to three years on average to become a fully certified air traffic controller.

Mr. Spero (03:12:43):

Congresswoman, thank you for the question. So to be an Airway Transportation System Specialist, it depends on the field of expertise that you go into. If it's communications, or radar, or automation navigational aids, but it can take typically up to three years to get certified on that sort of equipment. I want to add that, that equipment is different around the country. So you don't have one instrument landing system, you don't have one radar, you don't have one type of communication, all of those things are different around the country. So the academy has to maintain different sorts of equipment for folks to get trained, and that does cause the pipeline to get smaller because instead of using three classrooms to train on one thing, you're using three classrooms to train on three different things.

Ms. Davids (03:13:29):

Thank you Mr. Spero because that actually leads into my second question, which is I do think it would be helpful for folks to understand why it takes so long. I mean, I'm glad that you guys go through the rigorous training, but if you could talk a little to why it takes the amount of time it does for a certified professional controller or system specialist? Maybe if you could walk through the respective processes.

Mr. Daniels (03:13:57):

For air traffic controllers, the primary function is once they're hired, they'll go to an academy, if they meet the initial qualifications of security, medical, and background checks. Once they have training evaluation milestones that they have to hit at the academy, if you don't reach a certain level of competency or ability to execute the tasks at hand, you're removed from air traffic control. Once you complete that model, the three years at Oklahoma, you then move to a facility. Then you go through book work. If you don't meet the standards, you're removed from air traffic control. Then you have to do simulation training, once again, if you don't meet the standards, you're removed from air traffic control. And then finally, you move into actually talking to the aircraft. And all of this is built in order to have the level of competency, have a level of understanding. So that way when it's not just the routine day or it's the complex day, it's when that moment hits that you have no idea about, that puts you to rely on those fundamentals is why we have such a rigorous training process.

Ms. Davids (03:15:05):

Thank you.

Mr. Spero (03:15:06):

And when it comes to the Airway Transportation System Specialists, typically they bring some of that skill set to the table already, most of them learned navigation in the military. And then they have to go through principal schools with radar or automation navigational aids, and it takes a significant amount of time to get that, and then have to get certified on the equipment before they're able to go to work as journeymen.

Ms. Davids (03:15:30):

Yeah, thank you. And Mr. Bonsai will probably follow up because I did want to kind of bring forward some of the delays that we've seen with the FAA as they've rolled out some of the next-gen elements and the timeliness of those. I know they're in the final phases also of some initial Datacom deployment. So we'll follow up with questions, and thank you so much for being here again, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Chairman Nehls (03:16:02):

Mr. Garcia, you're recognized.

Mr. Garcia (03:16:06):

Thank you. And I know we're wrapping up our hearing, so thank you all for our guests and witnesses for being here. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Mr. Calio, thank you for your decades of service to the aviation industry. Congratulations on your retirement. I'm a newer member to the committee, I just joined, but I am very interested in aviation, obviously in transportation. We have airport in the city of Long Beach, which is also a city airport that we operated when I was mayor just before coming to Congress.

(03:16:35)
I know that there's a lot of concern about, obviously air safety. Obviously the major accident that we had is a big part of that, but I want to remind folks back home that aviation travel is still the safest way to travel. You're all doing incredible work, and I know a lot of people have a lot of fears, but it's important to reiterate that as have many of my colleagues today.

(03:16:58)
But what I am very concerned about, of course, are the sudden decisions by President Trump, and certainly Elon Musk to fire more than 400 FAA technicians that we employ through the FAA, and the confusion and the chaos that has caused. Our constituents are scared, there are, of course, accidents like that happened, of course, that we need to investigate. But the concerns about the human capital are very concerning, and I couldn't agree more with my colleagues that have shared their concerns about needing more air traffic controllers, of course, and not less. And of course, we know that every person that works at the FAA, their central mission is safety, whether they're an air traffic controller or not. And the decision to have those firings happen, particularly following the days of the crash, are very concerning.

(03:17:48)
Now, I personally believe that the President and Elon Musk have undermined safety by doing so, these have been, and my all FAA employees are critical personnel as far as I'm concerned. And we do understand that layoffs have impacted the FAA's Aviation Safety Division, the Certification Office, Flight Standards Office, the Office of Airports and the Air Traffic Organization.

(03:18:10)
Now, Mr. Spero, I know your organization represents FAA employees that have been recently fired by the new administration. Could you give us very briefly, just one or two examples of what responsibilities these workers actually had?

Mr. Spero (03:18:24):

Certainly. Thank you for the question, Congressman. So aviation safety assistance keep the skies safe by supporting aviation safety programs, they handle critical documentation. Aeronautical information Specialists, collect, evaluate, prepare critical navigation data maps and procedures. And then we have maintenance mechanics, they keep facilities running by repairing, maintaining buildings, utilities, infrastructure, everything from carpentry to air conditioning.

Mr. Garcia (03:18:51):

Thank you. I mean to me, all of those are critical positions. We should not be letting go of those positions, especially after having concerns about what's happening right now, and trying to make our airspace safer. And so thank you. Mr. Daniels, you've worked as an air traffic controller. I have to imagine your ability to do your job ensures and depends on other FAA employees. Is that a fair assumption to make?

Mr. Daniels (03:19:13):

Thank you, Congressman. And yes, it is. It is an ultimate team sport that we do every day.

Mr. Garcia (03:19:17):

So again, we shouldn't be letting go any of these FAA employees, especially right now. And it's a shame that Elon Musk has been given the ability to do so. I just want to also just add, we've heard reports of another priority for Elon Musk, of course, which is potentially to abandon a 15-year, $2.4 billion FAA contract with Verizon, which in my opinion is completely shameful, and in my opinion also speaks to the level of corruption that is possible in this process.

(03:19:46)
We know that he wants, of course, the contract to go to his own company that he personally owns, which is SpaceX. Now, I agree with ranking member Larson in thinking this absolutely should concern this committee, it should concern the entire Congress. I'm also worried about its impact, of course, to workers. Now, Mr. Daniels, given your experience, how much time and money could be wasted if the FAA started back at square one in the process with a new company?

Mr. Daniels (03:20:13):

Congressman, thank you for the question. Regardless of who's awarded a contract, it's vital to us that NACA remains involved in being a fully collaborative partner, and not only the testing, but also the implementing of any new technologies. We are the ones that are going to make sure that it has cost savings, and we cannot impede the progress of it at all.

Mr. Garcia (03:20:33):

And as I understand, the contract with Verizon was to upgrade a huge amount of critical communications infrastructure. Is that correct?

Mr. Daniels (03:20:40):

Can you say the question one more time, sir?

Mr. Garcia (03:20:42):

The contract with Verizon is to upgrade a huge amount of critical infrastructure.

Mr. Daniels (03:20:47):

It's meant to, as they call it TDM to IP, is to move our telecommunications over.

Mr. Garcia (03:20:53):

And as I clearly also just want to make a note that a critical infrastructure, especially when it revolves airspace and safe airspace, is not some sort of tech experiment, it's not some sort of startup. It is not something that we can just break and hope it gets fixed in the future. It is a complex, important project and process, and I hope that we don't move forward with giving Elon Musk the [inaudible 03:21:18] contract for that work. And so thank you and I yield back.

Chairman Nehls (03:21:21):

Gentleman yields. Any further questions from any members of the subcommittee?

Mr. Moulton (03:21:25):

Ms. Chairman.

Chairman Nehls (03:21:28):

The gentleman's recognized.

Mr. Moulton (03:21:29):

Thank you.

Chairman Nehls (03:21:29):

Good to see you, sir.

Mr. Moulton (03:21:30):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, we miss you on the railroad subcommittee. Mr. Daniels, or sorry, Mr. Krause, on this Starlink contract that my colleague was referring to. How does this Starlink contract compare to the normal FAA procurement process?

Mr. Daniels (03:21:52):

Congressman, thank you for the question. NACA doesn't involve ourselves, it's a purely an FAA DOT question of how they assign and do those contracts.

Mr. Moulton (03:22:01):

And so can anyone answer that question? Is this sort of normal process, is this what we expect, or is it out of the norm?

Mr. Bunce (03:22:10):

Congressman, I'd just add that if we've got a contract that's been in place for 15 years, the pace of modernization, that's completely out of cycle with it. So we've got to replace the copper switches and probably to fiber optic, but we may be at a point in time where we need to look at Satcom as a more efficient way to be able to deal with this. We're equipping a lot of our aircraft with satellite communications. Now, the big dishes that you see on top, whether it's Gogo, Starlink others and everything. So again, if it's competed fairly, we've got to be able to adapt to changes in technology. And right now the procurement system that the FAA has is just not nimble enough to keep pace with technology. So again, if it's competed fairly, and it helps us with better capability and it's at a lower cost, I think we need to look at it.

Mr. Moulton (03:23:03):

Yeah, I would agree with that. Do you have any evidence that it's being competed fairly?

Mr. Bunce (03:23:08):

I couldn't hear you, sir.

Mr. Moulton (03:23:09):

Do you have any evidence that this is being competed fairly as you asked? You said-

Mr. Bunce (03:23:13):

I'm not privy to the process for the competition there.

Mr. Moulton (03:23:17):

You're not aware of any evidence to that fact?

Mr. Bunce (03:23:19):

No, sir.

Mr. Moulton (03:23:21):

Air traffic controllers are currently receiving mixed messaging. They're receiving OPM buy-on offers, five bullet point emails, but then they were told that those provisions and rules don't apply. Mr. Daniels, how does this confusion impact morale for an already overwhelmed workforce?

Mr. Daniels (03:23:40):

Congressman, thank you for the question. That's what I was going to start with. We're six-day work weeks, 60 hours a week with some of the lowest staffing. And again, a resurgence of air traffic post-COVID to a liking that most people didn't expect. Anything that disrupts, puts strain, pressure, stress on an air traffic controller other than their normal lives that they go through every day is an unnecessary risk to this system, and should not be part of aviation at all.

Mr. Moulton (03:24:08):

I mean, I spoke with an air traffic controller last week whose baseline, whose normal life was six-day weeks. Is that pretty typical?

Mr. Daniels (03:24:18):

Congressman, that's correct. And most people are mandated, over 41% of our facilities, you are mandated and you only have four days off a month.

Mr. Moulton (03:24:26):

So if that's your baseline four days off an entire month, then I got to imagine that any additional stress is just not safe for our incredibly congested air system.

Mr. Daniels (03:24:38):

Congressman, like to clarify that absolutely. Any additional risk to the system builds up, and that's what the output is safety. Safety is a varying degree of risk, anything that helps us mitigate that risk and take away those stresses and pressures on air traffic controllers as we handle and move through this crisis, those hardworking men and women are shouldering every day and should be absolutely evaluated separately from any efforts that, again, add to it.

Mr. Moulton (03:25:08):

If the systems that the air traffic controllers use, Mr. Daniels, go down radars and other systems, does that add stress to the system?

Mr. Daniels (03:25:18):

Congressman, I appreciate the question. Again, to understand the complexity of air traffic control, sometimes it's easier just to use a basic analogy. If you were to be driving down the roads at 70 miles an hour and I was sitting behind you, and then I covered your eyes when you weren't ready, and said keep driving. That's what it's like for an air traffic controller to either lose communications, or lose radar in a moment's notice. And that's the type of scramble we go into to make sure they're flying public's safe.

Mr. Moulton (03:25:42):

Well, the problem is that Secretary Duffy claims that no air traffic controllers were fired by Mr. Musk. Yet there are reports that there have been layoffs of FAA workers who fix these things, who fix radars, and other air traffic control systems. This problem also happens in a government shutdown when air traffic controllers are considered essential, but maintenance personnel are not. So when the system has a mechanical malfunction, it can't be repaired. So we have this situation you've described where the system is so outdated and so old that maybe even the current procurement contract isn't going to modernize it enough. At the same time as you have air traffic controllers working a baseline of six days a week with four days off an entire month, and now you're saying that either Elon or the Republicans who shut down the government are going to put out of work the maintenance personnel. I mean, this just doesn't sound safe. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Chairman Nehls (03:26:36):

Gentlemen yields. Any further questions from members of the subcommittee? Seeing none. This concludes our hearing. I want to thank each of one of you for being here, and the committee stands adjourned.

Speaker 2 (03:30:06):

And with a bit of luck, I am live. Let me just double check in here. Yeah, cool. Right. Good evening everyone. Welcome to this exciting live stream, this is all about the masterclass as you know, so I'm here to answer all your burning questions. And yeah, we'll just have a bit of fun with it, and I'm going to go through the whole agenda, I'm going to show you exactly what it's about. I'm going to try and get through this fairly quickly because I know while you're really here, you just want to win a free ticket. So we will be doing that as well. But that'll be a little bit nearer the end, and then tickets will go live on the end of the live stream. So yeah, all good.

(03:30:46)
I think I'm prepared, I've had quite a week at [inaudible 03:30:49]. As usual, I'll try and keep this slick. I think I've got it down to a fine art now. I've got Mr. Alex Tech with me. Thank you Alex for stepping in and being a wonderful mod for me again. So he's going to keep the chat in check. Let's just say hello to a few people. And just before I go any further, if you've written pick me in this live stream chat, you ain't going to win, it's just simple as that. So you need to pick me in the video that's pinned to the top that won't be pinned there for much longer. So you've got a few minutes to do that. Well, you've you've probably got about…